Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[Twobit Whore]

Emo = goth who cries a lot and cuts himself.

Cyberpunk = dark and gritty futuristic setting with implants and neurogadgets etc.

Steampunk = Fantasy with steam-powered technology basically. Think today's inventions but done with 1800's technology. And magic.

[jayrebb]

I vaguely remember Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars having some steampunk elements. The boss Smithy and his fortress were all steampunk inspired. Pure steampunk/cyberpunk hasn't been very common in games.

How do you go from Legend of the Seven Stars to Paper Mario? Talk about a crash and burn concept. And going from a teen audience to a 10 year old audience made tons of sense. People were praying for the next Super Mario RPG, and the let-down was epic. Then they made a bunch of paper mario sequels instead of just going back to its roots.

[Vithe]

Originally Posted by jayrebb

I vaguely remember Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars having some steampunk elements. The boss Smithy and his fortress were all steampunk inspired. Pure steampunk/cyberpunk hasn't been very common in games.

How do you go from Legend of the Seven Stars to Paper Mario? Talk about a crash and burn concept. And going from a teen audience to a 10 year old audience made tons of sense. People were praying for the next Super Mario RPG, and the let-down was epic. Then they made a bunch of paper mario sequels instead of just going back to its roots.

The Mario & Luigi: Partner's in Time was a lot like Super Mario RPG. I thought that game was kickass.

[jayrebb]

Originally Posted by Vithe

The Mario & Luigi: Partner's in Time was a lot like Super Mario RPG. I thought that game was kickass.

Will check it out, I interest after the first paper mario so I haven't even heard of Partners in Time.

[Ngruk]

What are you guys thoughts on the MMO death systems out there right now? What works? What sucks? What hasn't been done but should be?

[Rezz]

No shards you have to pick up ala early EQ2, don't do the body summoning thing. Xp deficit you have to work off before getting more xp is a decent one, though it might lead to zerging at max level. PS, stay away from durability and durability loss on death. If anything, it should lose durability from wear and tear, not because you accidentally took poison damage at low health.

[Ngruk]

Originally Posted by Rezz

No shards you have to pick up ala early EQ2, don't do the body summoning thing. Xp deficit you have to work off before getting more xp is a decent one, though it might lead to zerging at max level. PS, stay away from durability and durability loss on death. If anything, it should lose durability from wear and tear, not because you accidentally took poison damage at low health.

But death has and always will be, imo, one of the money sink avenues. I like durability loss upon death.

I think but for the most hard core players the genre is past the exp penalty aspect of dying. Short of that there needs to be implications for dying. At max levels the money in your wallet is more than enough to offset the concern for the $$ cost associated with death, but what things would keep players concerned about death beyond a hard fast penalty of exp loss?

Certainly if you have pride you don't want to die, but that in and of itself is no deterrent.

[Plorkyeran]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

Certainly if you have pride you don't want to die, but that in and of itself is no deterrent.

It perhaps isn't enough of a deterrent, but it is one. Even in BGs, where dying sometimes leaves you better off than surviving I've seen people run away in fights, and the entire phenomenon of bubble-hearthing shows that there are people who would rather not die even if surviving possibly means significantly more wasted time than dying and running back.

In WoW, durability doesn't really do that much anymore. Below the level cap, repairs are so cheap that they're pretty much meaningless. In raids, the cost of repairs is pretty minor compared to the cost of consumables for everyone but the tanks. The main effect it has is that I'm completly unwilling to do pickup 5-mans anymore, as unlike when I was in blues, wiping several times is incredibly expensive.

[Mannorai]

I'll have to disagree with durability in general. But if you really feel the necessity to have it, I would ask that you at least not implement an additional loss at death. I cannot even come close to wording it in a way that would truly express my disgust for durability/durability loss. I would much rather lose time/experience than money.

On the other hand, if you would like to make available other ways to repair gear besides money, such as having an npc available to repair it, given you had the proper farmable materials, I would be content with that.

[Greyskye]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

But death has and always will be, imo, one of the money sink avenues. I like durability loss upon death.

I think but for the most hard core players the genre is past the exp penalty aspect of dying. Short of that there needs to be implications for dying. At max levels the money in your wallet is more than enough to offset the concern for the $$ cost associated with death, but what things would keep players concerned about death beyond a hard fast penalty of exp loss?

Certainly if you have pride you don't want to die, but that in and of itself is no deterrent.

Really, you come down to one thing. It's time loss. How you dictate that time loss is purely up to you. Time loss through lost exp. Time loss through lost items. Or time loss through travel. That's just a start but you can see where it leads. Ultimately it's about 'time.' You can add time loss through skills lost as well. As a friend always says : "Same thing only different."

What becomes important here, imho, is letting players suffer the loss without it diminishing their perception of their worth. Losing items or levels greatly impacts a players perception of their worth in-game. Losing exp. without loss of level (read exp debt) or losing time (due to travel/corpse recovery) does not diminish a players sense of worth. Losing skills, I think, falls somewhere in the middle but that is something that can be fine-tuned around the afore-mentioned.

Just my ramblings from 10 years on-line.

Carry on!

[Traldan]

I think there's a fine line to walk - a combination of durability and xp debt/loss makes death undesirable, but not game-breaking. People shouldn't dread dying, and want to stop playing for the day if they die once - but at the same time, it shouldn't be meaningless to the point where any joe average player doesn't care if he dies at all.

I'd even lean more towards the little penalty, simply because you WANT people to keep playing, and enjoying it. But too little penalty, IMO, removes the undesirability of death.

[Rezz]

Death wasn't a money sink at any point in time in EQ that I can remember. It is an avenue, but it's one you don't have to go down.

EQ's farmers were far less intrusive than the farmers of WoW, for a very special reason. Gold wasn't only a means of advancement, it was used for maintaining as well in WoW. Which creates a much larger need for gold farmers and other 2nd party asshats who create ever soaring prices on items and generally dominate the economy to the point where buying gold is one of the few sensible choices you have left to you unless you only spend your time online trying to procure gold.

The reason I dislike the loss of durability on death, is that it creates an artificial timer on how long you can stay somewhere away from town. Sometimes it's several hours, othertimes it's 20 minutes as you chain die learning a new boss. Then you must stop action and go back repair somewhere, then run all the way back. With xp loss, you can stay somewhere for hours, even if you die more often than not, you aren't forced to return to "Town" to fix your shit up so you aren't fighting naked.

Lose the requirement for money as a means of maintaining, and you lose potential goldfarmers. It also means you don't need as much money in the system, reducing the need of "Grey" items that have no use other than to take up bag space and be vendor fodder and the economy will build more intuitively.

[Dennadyne]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

But death has and always will be, imo, one of the money sink avenues. I like durability loss upon death.

I think but for the most hard core players the genre is past the exp penalty aspect of dying. Short of that there needs to be implications for dying. At max levels the money in your wallet is more than enough to offset the concern for the $$ cost associated with death, but what things would keep players concerned about death beyond a hard fast penalty of exp loss?

Certainly if you have pride you don't want to die, but that in and of itself is no deterrent.

I hate durability, but if you need a money sink, that works pretty well. I am more in favor of harsh death penalties. A permanent xp loss is good and corpse run is pretty much necessary. Use corpse summoning shards as another money sink. Death needs to be godawful, not trivialized.

[Azzikai]

Death mechanics really depend on the overall gaming world and what you are trying to accomplish with the death penalty. What is your leveling curve like? How are you granting abilities? Is everything available all at once or are you forced into chosing things based on what you think your situation will need? How big is your world? How quick is travel? Are people going to be "bound" to a specific area and return there when they die or will there be revive points? Is dying there as a money sink only? Is it there to prevent people from going through some content too fast? Is it there to try and add an element of "danger"? etc.

While I prefer EQ's death penalty I wouldn't want it in WoW. The way death works, the way the game is designed, just wouldn't support it. I know that doesn't answer the question but I really think any death penalty should be a reflection of the game world itself, something that enhances it and fits with the overall feel. Not just a mechanic that happens to be there /shrug

[Ngruk]

Originally Posted by Azzikai

Death mechanics really depend on the overall gaming world and what you are trying to accomplish with the death penalty. What is your leveling curve like? How are you granting abilities? Is everything available all at once or are you forced into chosing things based on what you think your situation will need? How big is your world? How quick is travel? Are people going to be "bound" to a specific area and return there when they die or will there be revive points? Is dying there as a money sink only? Is it there to prevent people from going through some content too fast? Is it there to try and add an element of "danger"? etc.

While I prefer EQ's death penalty I wouldn't want it in WoW. The way death works, the way the game is designed, just wouldn't support it. I know that doesn't answer the question but I really think any death penalty should be a reflection of the game world itself, something that enhances it and fits with the overall feel. Not just a mechanic that happens to be there /shrug

I think it's important to note that a lot of the questions you initially asked don't pertain to everyone in a game world. Death does. Death will effect every player that ever plays your game.

Should death be a penalty? Should it be rewarded? I would think you would want to design a world where death is at the edge of your content creation and design, always lurking for the unprepared or overanxious. Death being commonplace makes it, well, common.

You make some good points and ask some good questions.

I guess I wonder what that truly 'perfect' death system is, and I think the answer is tied completely and solely to the game you are making. Not that I didn't already know that, but the feedback, even in just these few answers since the question was posed, are illuminating.

"Hard core" players want the exp loss of EQ, most others don't. Bottom line is death 'allows' you to take away from players, which is something most players don't and won't like. The puzzle to solve is how much and what can you take to make it worth risking again, and make it believable and fun.