Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[Pyros]

I still remember clearly when the suck/not suck line was obvious for the first time in wow. "Watch out, dark glare coming up" "WTF MOVE IDIOTS". After that it was hard fielding 40mans for naxx because the difficulty just went up and you found out at the end of AQ40 your guild had 10-50% of bad players.

Overall tho I think it was a good thing(the 40man thing wasn't tho, unforgiving content and 40slots=bad design imo), you couldn't just sleep your way thru content, even tho mixed in there were a few random encounters that sucked because there was simply nothing to do, like early AQ40 when the tank would get melee/uppercut/melee/UB by a twin emp in one/two round and random crushing blows in general. However with wow it was the first time I actually enjoyed PvE, at least the first few times we were running thru content, farming was boring as hell.

I think hard content and fast paced gameplay are a key to making encounters not too boring. Everything that's just a gear check is pretty stupid, I wish future games raid encounters will be based on wow end game raiding(without consumables) cause it makes them at least a bit enjoyable. I haven't raided in BC tho so can't really comment on that, besides the few stories of untested content I heard.

[Twobit Whore]

I think the real difference in the suck/not suck scale between EQ and WoW is that in WoW everyone has to not suck past a certain point to accomplish anything. In EQ you just needed a few people to not suck, pullers, tank, a few healers.. and the rest just needed to not suck enough to avoid ganking agro and you win. Obviously thismay have changed past GoD, and probably did because we started seeing more dependency on individuals in osme of the Ikkinz raids, Uqua and Inktuta.

But for average groups there wasn't that fine of a line unless you were soloing in EQ. As a necro I could solo pull nameds from deep into Chardok using snare, FD, levant and a zone line. Of course that was borderline exploiting, but that is what made EQ fun.. WoW doesn't have this, and it replaced the desire for a puller (or whatever notsuck role) with scripted/linked pulls and encounters that forced you to do them the way the devs intended. It's equally as fun for the most part, just different.

[tad10]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

with scripted/linked pulls and encounters that forced you to do them the way the devs intended. It's equally as fun for the most part, just different.

WoW would be a better game if you weren't forced to do everything the way the devs intended. What I am most interested in finding out about WAR and AoC (and .38 studios and Bioware games when they finally get annouced) is if any of the aforementioned games permits more freedom in handling solo/group/raid encounters than WoW (question number two is what is the ratio of bear ass quests to actual quests).

[Twobit Whore]

Well there is freedom and then there is 'freedom'. The former being exactly that. Free to do things however you can within the confines of the game. Single player games are the best example of this. Something like Fallout where you can plant a bomb and blow someone up, pickpocket them, go in guns blazing or use diplomacy/charisma to complete an objective. The latter is like EQ, doing things that are unintended to complete a goal.. such as snaring a named in a pack and running to zone, coming back in to find him still snared and alone. That is creative of course, but it is also borderline exploitation. I don't think we will see much of this from anyone because all it does is lead to headaches for devs and other players.

[spronk]

It's really 25 man raiding where you are forced to do things a certain way, up to there in WoW there is lots of freedom. I've done some of the endgame instances with crazy classes (4 priests+paladin in shadowlabs, we just mind controlled everything and had a blast), there was the guy who 5-boxed 5 shamans and would own everything in 5 mans and PVP. I've played against 5 man paladin, mage, warrior, etc teams in arena and it can be fun as hell.

Its just the dumb 25 man raiding where you are forced down very, very specific raid makeups, talents, strategies, etc.

[Draegan]

All the freedom of EQ was from shitty coding.

[tad10]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

. I don't think we will see much of this from anyone because all it does is lead to headaches for devs and other players.

What precisely is wrong with creating headaches for developers? The point of a game isn't that developers have an easy time developing the game but that players have a fun time playing the game.

* * *

I appreciate spronk's point that there is some give in WoW at the 5-man level. I don't think there is enough even at the 5 man level -- but credit where credit is due & etc. Some >>> none.

[Kaxmax]

Originally Posted by tad10

What precisely is wrong with creating headaches for developers?

There's nothing inherently wrong with it, I think his point was that developers generally don't go out of their way to create headaches for themselves. Things which are borderline exploits create problems for them, from encounter balancing to other players whining, hence the developers will go out of their way to limit the more 'creative' gameplay.

It's not necessarily a good thing from our point of view, but 2bit is right in that it's the way things are going to be.

[Twobit Whore]

Players will always create headaches for devs, even in a game that is as limiting as you profess WoW is. Anyone can sit here and rattle off countless things that needed to be or should be addressed.. but devs are not going to specifically go out of their way to implement trouble. They get enough of it without intentionally creating it. Maybe you don't remember all the shit that Verant/SOE tried to do to curb some of the unintended gameplay.. such as kiting DoT damage changes or limiting the number of targets an AE could hit, etc. Eventually they just gave up. A real company today isn't going to give up and they are going to try and limit it as much as possible from jumpstreet. Players will still find ways to do things in their own manner and if it is severe enough then the devs will step in and adjust it.

[tad10]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

A real company today isn't going to give up and they are going to try and limit it as much as possible from jumpstreet. Players will still find ways to do things in their own manner and if it is severe enough then the devs will step in and adjust it.

A bard kite killing an entire zone may be a little too much freedom but if a company is trying to make the proverbial WoW-killer limiting freedom (beyond excesses like the aforementioned bard) is the wrong way to go.

[Draegan]

Your freedom is just broken mechanics Tad.

[tad10]

Originally Posted by Draegan

Your freedom is just broken mechanics Tad.

Hopefully you aren't involved in the development of some of the more interesting-looking upcoming games.

[Draegan]

Originally Posted by tad10

Hopefully you aren't involved in the development of some of the more interesting-looking upcoming games.

I could call for the same thing about you since we disagree so fundamentally about what we think an MMO should have or be. You love EQ and can't get away from anything that isn't EQ related. Is there any MMO that Brad McQuad hasn't had a hand in that you've played for more than 2-3 months? Just checking

But all the FDing and Bard Kiting and using zone lines etc are broken mechanics that most people remember fondly. I doupt they were put it for the purposes they became.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Draegan

But all the FDing and Bard Kiting and using zone lines etc are broken mechanics that most people remember fondly. I doupt they were put it for the purposes they became.

They weren't, and this is why they cannot be recreated. They won't be used in an out-of-the-box fashion because anyone that implements these types of mechanics will do so intentionally in which case it is placed inside the box. The next unintended fun will be something completely different, similar to the wall-walking in WoW.

[Draegan]

I guess all the fun comes from breaking the rules and figuring out something that wasn't supposed to work that way. I can understand that. But from a dev's point of view, that sucks because that means you fucked up on your end of the job.