Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[Angry Amadeus]

Fun has really been lost on designers in the past few years. EQ had fun within it accidentally; most games try to mimic that now and just ruin it. There's a lot to be said for shitty design but awesome gameplay. What am I trying to say here? Vanguard is an enjoyable game with its "moments", but that's about it. Yeah, it's fucking huge. If you can play it.

[Bongk]

Originally Posted by Wodin

Man, you realize that this kind of argument has been done over and over again. Designers explained why monsters don't use "intelligent" targeting - it's easy as hell to do, and if they did it would be the most unfun experience for the player ever, because you'd never win. Without those artificial constraints of things like threatlists, the "fun" breaks down very quickly.

And fucking Asheron's Call showed exactly why mages wearing plate was a bad idea.

The reason you cant have intelligent targeting is because the current games don't have collision detection on NPC's and other systems to support it. How about if you surrounded your healers so mobs could not get to them without getting through your tanks (or people who specialzied in armors and abilities that give larger health pools in a skill based environment). How about having abilites that let you place mobs in situations where they can get boxed in by a tank or two who they have to fight through. And don't give me the shit about technology, I mean come on UO had collision detection 10 fucking years ago.

And who cares what asherons call did, since when has turbine or microsoft done anything right in MMOG's? That is like saying class based system suck, horizons proved that.

And for the people saying that is what fantasy is all about, where is the fantasy books are you seeing healers during the fights? I must be missing it in the books I read.

[Gaereth]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

If your game is 100% instanced you are going to know what you are facing when you go in and you are going to take a group with you. Unless you think it's easy to just randomly generate terrain.. and sometimes there is a mountain and sometimes a lake.. yet the instance still represents what it is supposed to be?

Imagine zoning into Stratholme, but instead of a burning city its an open field.. how does that work again? All continuity would be lost and there would be no sense of permenance or persistance within the world.

hmmm.....we aren't talking about terrain, or the entire environment. Just pieces.

How about zoning into Strat and someone in you group detects a passage that shortcuts, or shows you something new. Or a spot that someone can climb over, or a place where you can bash through. Next time its not there...its small and its different every time. Those type of small things could be added directly on top of the existing Strat to create small dynamic variations every time you entered.

Its not the big huge things that need to change, its the small things that add flavor and texture. You seem to be under the assumption that I am talking about changing the world every time you enter...its more along the lines of massaging it and adding interesting and fun things for characters to do.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Bongk

The reason you cant have intelligent targeting is because the current games don't have collision detection on NPC's and other systems to support it. How about if you surrounded your healers so mobs could not get to them without getting through your tanks. How about having abilites that let you place mobs in situations where they can get boxed in by a tank or two who they have to fight through. And don't give me the shit about technology, I mean come on UO had collision detection 10 fucking years ago.

And who cares what asherons call did, since when has turbine or microsoft done anything right in MMOG's? That is like saying class based system suck, horizons proved that.

DDO has tanks that can block mobs, but that doesn't stop missle weapons or spells and oddly enough the tanks still have taunt. Unless every battle occurs in a tiny room with one door then it isn't going to be feasible.

And it's interesting you bring up UO because you should be very familiar with the Tank Mage. Plate armor, a halbred and Corp Por..

[Maxxius]

Originally Posted by Gaereth

RPG's aren't solely about combat. I will tend to agree that the MMO portion of the games seems to have sunk to a level where combat is the primary focus...but it doesn't have to be and shouldn't be.

.

Nah, Twobit is right on that point. These games are always pretty combat centric. PvP certainly is by definition, and certainly leveling and PVE raiding. Not saying you can't do other things, but it is all about the combat in the end. Why do you think many harp against this whole "needed" class crap; they waste too much time getting the people together and then hopefully stay together to kill shit.

[Sunder]

Originally Posted by Bongk

since when has turbine or microsoft done anything right in MMOG's?

Microsoft got out of the steaming pile of shit that was VG. Point for them.

[Draegan]

Originally Posted by Bongk

And for the people saying that is what fantasy is all about, where is the fantasy books are you seeing healers during the fights? I must be missing it in the books I read.

Dragonlance Series, Wheel of Time Series, Some of the Feist books (I think), just to name a few.

[Bongk]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

DDO has tanks that can block mobs, but that doesn't stop missle weapons or spells and oddly enough the tanks still have taunt. Unless every battle occurs in a tiny room with one door then it isn't going to be feasible.

And it's interesting you bring up UO because you should be very familiar with the Tank Mage. Plate armor, a halbred and Corp Por..

so what how DDO did shit? 2bit it is impossible to deabte anything with you as you refuse to think of anything except in the terms it has already been done. Before wow came out you woulda sat here and told us rage is a stupid idea it will never work.

There are ways of doing things that have not been done already, really there is. There is also ways of refining and combining existing ideas that are already out there.

Just as a stupid 2 second idea with zero thought to it, why couldnt an magic type person get skilled in illusions and create an illusionary type wall to block off 1 side to help the formation form easier or maybe you have an person skilled in excavation that can make quick trenches than cannot be bypassed or whatever there are a million ways to do it if you open your mind.

There are PLENTY of ideas to do things and I am not saying these are good ideas they are just first thing to pop in my head type stuff, but it IS possible and it can be done and it would be different and until you try it in relaity you have no idea how good or fun it can or would be.

[Bongk]

Originally Posted by Draegan

Dragonlance Series, Wheel of Time Series, Some of the Feist books (I think), just to name a few.

I have read every feist book, who was healing in the middle of battle? ever? maybe a quick cure here and there but noone was a dedicated healer. Who healed frodo in LOTR?

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Bongk

so what how DDO did shit?

Well you did say:

The reason you cant have intelligent targeting is because the current games don't have collision detection on NPC's and other systems to support it.

And I was simply informing you, since you obviously didn't know, that some games actually have this already. Yes, a current game.

Before wow came out you woulda sat here and told us rage is a stupid idea it will never work.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have.. and I hardly think rage is comparable to something like removing all classes and everyone doing totally random shit.

[Draegan]

Originally Posted by Bongk

I have read every feist book, who was healing in the middle of battle?

I havn't read them in years, so thats why I said "I think". LOTRO? No one in battle I guess. But I didn't bring that one up. You ignored my other two examples nicely though.

The reason why most games (that arn't PVP related, or heavily instanced) don't have collision on is because it's so easy to grief someone. Which is why most games don't have it.

[Gaereth]

Well...that was poorly done skills trees. :P A tank mage might be the equivalent of a 41 point arms warrior and a 41 point protection warrior. There is a reason it isn't allowed its overpowered.

You can't take things that were done poorly and point to them as reasons why things will never be done better. A properly implemented skills layout has lockouts, deadends, prerequisites, etc, etc. You have to put in checks and balances or it is a goofy system ala the Tank Mage.

I always liken it to a Civ type tree. You pick something and it opens up new paths while at the same time it might be closing down other paths. Then you might have some gear restrictions as well. An open ended system is only as good as the checks and balances you put upon it.

Eve's checks and balances are time and the different ships. It takes time to aquire the skills to be effective and the ships controls what you 'class' you can be.

[Twobit Whore]

Last time I checked fantasy books have absolutely fuckall nothing to do with MMO game mechanics. Seriously. Why can't I be Legolas and solo 50 foot tall elephants and the hundreds of bandits that accompany them? Because it would be fucking stupid to make a literal translation of a book into an MMO.

I always liken it to a Civ type tree. You pick something and it opens up new paths while at the same time it might be closing down other paths. Then you might have some gear restrictions as well. An open ended system is only as good as the checks and balances you put upon it.

Isn't that pretty much WoW talent trees? The deeper you go in one the less you can get in another.. and gear choices might enhance different ones?

[Draegan]

EVEs system sucks though. I'm still waiting for a skill based system that will allow people all this wonderful freedom of selection where you don't need certain ability oriented players to do certain dungeons, encounters etc.

[Bongk]

Originally Posted by Draegan

I havn't read them in years, so thats why I said "I think". LOTRO? No one in battle I guess. But I didn't bring that one up. You ignored my other two examples nicely though.

because i never read the other two. hard to comment on books you never read.