Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[Gaereth]

hmmm...so traps and puzzles and secret things aren't possible with todays technology??

I find that rather difficult to believe.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Gaereth

hmmm...so traps and puzzles and secret things aren't possible with todays technology??

I find that rather difficult to believe.

On the scale that you are thinking of, I don't think they are. Basic traps and puzzles and secret things are obviously feasible, they are done all the time. Making them 'meaningful' such as you would need to devote a significant portion of your character progression to it is much different.

Then you have to answer the question of 'is it fun?'. Would being a swimmer/climber in a fantasy PvE world be fun to many people? Enough to make it worthwhile to spend the time and money on creating it? I doubt it.

[Gaereth]

Originally Posted by Geaux

wouldnt what you end up with is waiting for uber DPS build to log on his swimmer alt to open the path?

Only if that was the only way in. But what if it just cut off 30 minutes and got you to some cool nifty place you can't otherwise access...would it be worth bringing Jimmy the Swimnerd??

Lets take any of the dungeons in TBC and take a look. Very linear, you progress in pretty much a straight line from beginning to end. What if you threw in some secret crap, its all instances so lets make it random locations and obstacles, etc, etc. You could still enter, follow the trail and do the content in the nice missionary way. But if you happened to have others with you that can find these things you get something different.

Its about options.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Gaereth

Its about options.

But in effect you are actually removing options. Instead of needing a healer you now need a swimming healer so you can hit up the named that people in the group want to farm. You have just gone from recruiting a broad single role to a specific combination of roles limiting the number of people that can join your group.

Or what if you actually needed a dedicated swimmer. Would every dungeon have an underwater path that needed one? That would get pretty old quick. Hell, may as well just make a new class.. "Olympic Swimmer", because he is going to be wanted in every group. If it was only certain dungeons that needed it, what is the dedicated swimmer supposed to do about the rest of the content?

[tad10]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

Then you have to answer the question of 'is it fun?'. Would being a swimmer/climber in a fantasy PvE world be fun to many people? Enough to make it worthwhile to spend the time and money on creating it? I doubt it.

Hell yeah it's fun. The last six months I played WoW I spent almost my entire time exploring its backside (top of Un'Goro, old Silithus, Hyjal & CoT pre-TBC the weird shit in Deadmines). One of the four types of gamers is Explorer -- so I know I'm not alone (and wasn't alone on those journeys). Be humble and admit you're wrong on this one.

[Twobit Whore]

What you did was exploit to do things you weren't supposed to do. That is what is fun. You didn't answer the question.. is it worth the money, manhours and resources involved to incorporate that into a whole realm of gameplay? Not just for you, but on an investment-return scale.

How many people play Vanguard to run around the vast landscape and just look at shit? If that is so fun, then why don't more people do it? That part of the game at least worked, right?

[Digits]

You're right, all future developers should just make dungeons as linear as possible like TBC because while it may be boring, it sure is convenient. No, you don't remove options by making a dungeon non linear. The swimming example is stupid unless swimming is under a much broader archetype such as, gasp, aerobics and is critical to stealth play.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Digits

You're right, all future developers should just make dungeons as linear as possible like TBC because while it may be boring, it sure is convenient. No, you don't remove options by making a dungeon non linear. The swimming example is stupid unless swimming is under a much broader archetype such as, gasp, aerobics and is critical to stealth play.

Holy shit, that's what I said. You could make it a secondary skill that is part of a defined class and accomplish the same thing. Which has NOTHING to do with class-based vs. skill-based being better.

But then again, the discussion was how do you make it so that a skill-based system promotes diverse skillsets instead of turning into a FOTM quasi-class based system. So you make swimming a primary focus of a character so that you couldn't just be a warrior type with a swimming skill, but then you have just made 'Swimmer' a class.

Congrats on limiting your development of content to include something to make that classs viable in more than one dungeon.. or making it viable in very limited places which means no one will do it, no one will use that content and all that work was for naught.

[Gaereth]

If you put a single obstacle that needed to be bypassed, that was the same, in everything dungeon then...well...hmm...sounds like tanks currently...but I digress.

If a dungeon had water, a wall to climb, an incription to decipher, or something secret to give up....and you didn't know what was going to show up...what would you do then??

What if these things are kinda random in these magical worlds you are playing in...what if your group is heading to a hunting spot and someone detects something of their specialty??

Maybe nothing special happens and all and you just fight....but maybe something does.

And farming static content is a whole other discussion. It always seems silly that Bob the Sword 'Doom dropper stands in the same spot day after day.

[Draegan]

The only way you can move away from the standard min/max group/class makeup thats prevalent in today's MMOs you need to implement dynamic content. I don't think todays technology can create GOOD, on par with WOW encounters, content that changes each time you confront it so it's always new.

This is not the same thing as random spawns or random abilities. This would require a very indepth AI. You can have zero scripts involved. This forces you to bring hybrids into your groups so you have some bend in the capabilities of your party. However when you know what you're up against, you will always have min/maxers.

[tad10]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

What you did was exploit to do things you weren't supposed to do. That is what is fun. You didn't answer the question.. is it worth the money, manhours and resources involved to incorporate that into a whole realm of gameplay? Not just for you, but on an investment-return scale.

How many people play Vanguard to run around the vast landscape and just look at shit? If that is so fun, then why don't more people do it? That part of the game at least worked, right?

I ran around VG and looked at all the shit. Hell I tried to swim from Thestra to Kojan early on. I did similar explorations in EQ and WoW. The last six months in WoW were just getting into areas I hadn't gotten to before. One of the reasons I liked VG was the fact there was a shitton to explore.

Just because you are 0% Explorer doesn't mean that others (such as mysefl) would rank Exploration very high up there in things I like to do in MMOs. Indeed I rate it higher than killing mobs.

[Bongk]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

Hell, may as well just make a new class.. "Olympic Swimmer", because he is going to be wanted in every group. If it was only certain dungeons that needed it, what is the dedicated swimmer supposed to do about the rest of the content?

you cant get past the non class system can you? In a skill system he would not be "swimmer" as that is just one the the skills he can learn. In teh rest of the content he uses other skils. But in the end youy limit people so no one person can be everything and if they want to go full on DPS or combat they gimp themself in other aspects of the game. But i know you are stuck on the wow model where combat is the whole game.

Not saying I agree with either of you, but damn have an open mind at least. There is way more than 1 way to make games and they can all be viable and successful or would you rather everything is a wow clone.

[Draegan]

Meh, oops.

[Draegan]

Originally Posted by Bongk

you cant get past the non class system can you? In a skill system he would not be "swimmer" as that is just one the the skills he can learn. In teh rest of the content he uses other skils. But in the end youy limit people so no one person can be everything and if they want to go full on DPS or combat they gimp themself in other aspects of the game. But i know you are stuck on the wow model where combat is the whole game.

Not saying I agree with either of you, but damn have an open mind at least. There is way more than 1 way to make games and they can all be viable and successful or would you rather everything is a wow clone.

You're not listening to what 2bit is saying. He doesn't care that there is a swimmer skill that you can learn. He and I want to know how you can develop a skill based system where you don't gravitate to dps, tank, healer, nuker and create content that keeps you from doing it. Saying there's a swimmer skill doesn't do that.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Bongk

combat is the whole game.

Combat *is* the whole game, or at least most of it. That's what these games are based on. If you want to break the mold and forge a new genre.. go ahead. Wait, they did this.. it's called the Sims Online and Second Life.

What you want are virtual worlds that are engrossing to a few and boring for the masses. So go ahead use that climbing skill to climb that mountain.. then what? Combat? Or do you just stand on the peak and plant a flag?