Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by grimsark

DONE RIGHT

The whole problem with this is that anything DONE RIGHT is going to be perfect. It doesn't matter if it's classes or skills, if both are DONE RIGHT they will be perfect so neither one could be better than the other.

Obviously a DONE RIGHT skill based system would be better than DONE WRONG class based, but the reverse is also true.

What you are talking about is perfection and that is something that will never happen. Anything being perfect would be better than imperfect so the whole point is moot.

[Draegan]

I don't want to read a 100 page design doc. How do you set up skills so you don't gravitate to a certain subset? What kind of encounters can you design around not being good at fireball or swinging a club? Are we still talking about an MMORPG at this point?

[Gaereth]

WOW is done right for what it is...but is it perfect??

There is quite a bit of range between doing something right and perfection.

[Twobit Whore]

Is WoW done right? It's done pretty good, but I wouldn't say it is done right.

[Teljair]

I don't think WoW is done right.

[Drtyrm]

I think both sides of the argument should agree that the skill vs class debate is just one of many many decisions that go into designing the entire game. Encounters, gameplay, itemization, crafting etc all are interdependent. To boldly state that "skills are better than classes" is just a juvenile position to take.

[Gaereth]

Originally Posted by Draegan

I don't want to read a 100 page design doc. How do you set up skills so you don't gravitate to a certain subset? What kind of encounters can you design around not being good at fireball or swinging a club? Are we still talking about an MMORPG at this point?

There are tons of different things aside from actually fighting that can be incorporated. What if the only way to get to the boss was for a highly skilled climber to attach ropes for others to get there. Or a highly skilled swimmer has to go in and drain something to get in....or a sneak has to let you in...what about a highly skilling linguist being able to answer a question from a mob...and on and on before you even get to a main encounter or started fighting.

The fact that most of the games have devolved into the simplicity of swinging a club or nuking the shite out of everything doesn't mean there aren't tons of alternate solutions out there. If being skilled in something other than blowing the crap out of everything was important then people besides the roleplayers would do it.

The games are currently designed to make everything explode...thats the game. If you change the content then a change in the characters is viable.

[Twobit Whore]

That's shit you do in a pen and paper game. MMO Games haven't 'devolved' from that, they haven't even evolved to it in the first place.

But even if we had those in games, why couldn't they be done in a class based system? Maybe you can pick a secondary skill to focus on.. like climbing or swimming. Clearly any adventurer would have rudimentary skills at it but you could choose to focus on one to improve it. A rogue may be an excetpional climber while a mage, through the aid of spells, could be a great swimmer.

But in the end, how do you incorporate compelling and meaningful gameplay that warrants longterm focus on these abilities? It's basically just a variation of a locked door that you need someone to pick to advance.

[Draegan]

Originally Posted by Gaereth

There are tons of different things aside from actually fighting that can be incorporated. What if the only way to get to the boss was for a highly skilled climber to attach ropes for others to get there. Or a highly skilled swimmer has to go in and drain something to get in....or a sneak has to let you in...what about a highly skilling linguist being able to answer a question from a mob...and on and on before you even get to a main encounter or started fighting.

The fact that most of the games have devolved into the simplicity of swinging a club or nuking the shite out of everything doesn't mean there aren't tons of alternate solutions out there. If being skilled in something other than blowing the crap out of everything was important then people besides the roleplayers would do it.

The games are currently designed to make everything explode...thats the game. If you change the content then a change in the characters is viable.

All those ideas seem pretty boring. I want to build up and spend time on my character so he can swim better or climb better? Naaah.

[grimsark]

Originally Posted by Drtyrm

I think both sides of the argument should agree that the skill vs class debate is just one of many many decisions that go into designing the entire game.

You are correct. However, character mechanics are the single most important and far reaching aspect of an MMORPG’s design and in many ways dictates everything else. Simply because it is through the character that the customer experiences the game and interacts with it. Which is, the WHOLE POINT of an MMOROG.

Originally Posted by Drtyrm

Encounters, gameplay, itemization, crafting etc all are interdependent. To boldly state that "skills are better than classes" is just a juvenile position to take.

I will refer you to my Oxen and Plow analogy here… One being better then the other is purely dependant on what you hope to achieve with it. The same is true for class vs. skill based character mechanics.

...

Now back to writing my reply to Draegan.

[tad10]

Originally Posted by Draegan

I don't want to read a 100 page design doc. How do you set up skills so you don't gravitate to a certain subset? What kind of encounters can you design around not being good at fireball or swinging a club? Are we still talking about an MMORPG at this point?

IF, hypothetically, 38 studios has decided to go with a skill-based system but the content is still designed around the main archetypes (tanking, healing, CCing, dpsing (melee/magic)) + what I also consider main archs -- but a lot of people think of as secondary characteristics (buffing/debuffing/Pet) then you are going to see the skill system essentially devolve into a class system. You're going to get min/max tank builds, healer builds, etc.

I would however, knowing no more than the odd post on this thread by the gang at 38 studios, bet good money that they're using a class system based on the standard archs. But with some sort of hybrid skill system (a la WoW talent trees) on top of whatever their base classes are.

Now long ago, and in a different thread, I discussed a skill system that wasn't based on the archetypes. It was, instead a ripoff of MTG mechanics as applied to an MMO setting (actually it was MTG the MMO but whatever).

Assume that each MTG card is a distinct aquireable skill or item. E.g Fireball or Summon Goblin are distinct skills. You're limited to a 'deck' (really just skill slots) of 60 abilities whose reuse timers and availability depend on how many you pack into your deck. Unlike current MMOs you'd only have say 7 or so cards (aka abilities) available at any time -- so you better build your deck correctly.

There is no tank per se, or healer per se -- you may have quested and had the some sort of taunt card drop off a mob that you've added to your deck -- but in no sense does that one card (or four if you've hit the boss multiple times) make you a tank. Similiarly you may have a heal spell that a mob dropped but again that one spell doesn't make you a healer.

Like the card game -- everyone is pretty much DPS -- whether direct, dots, pets or melee (not in the CCG but would have to be in the MMO) with some crowd control (some of the blue/white spells). This wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea and I have a hard time visualizing the raid game where almost everyone is DPS and the rest are CC-- but hey we're just talking whether a fantasy MMO w/ a skill system could exist in theory without there always being set specs. Not whether anyone would ever play such a game.

Since skills are aquired through encounters. Cardboard specs aren't possible because a high end raiders skill selection is going to be a lot different from Mr. Casual. But assuming the game holds true to the CCG -- good builds should be available even to players who only have 'common' non-raid mob dropped skills. (Reality is that Mr. Casual wouldn't give a shit that he could build a decent deck out of commons. He would instead bitch and play something else because 'why play a game where I never get the chance to get a Black Lotus' -- but so it goes)

This of course has nothing to do with 38 studios -- but D's asked the question if it was possible to do it w/n an MMO.

[Gaereth]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

That's shit you do in a pen and paper game. MMO Games haven't 'devolved' from that, they haven't even evolved to it in the first place.

Well, I say devolved because RPG's have always had these elements...until you hit the MMOrpg's.

And yes, you can have those extra skills in a class system. I was just pointing out in a couple of ways (if you can't see dozens and dozens of ways to do different things you aren't very imaginative) that content will dictate where the masses allocate their skill points. If you make a game where the only thing that matters is hack n slash then people will invariably put all their points into maximizing it. Skills only matter if there is content for those skills.

That is why in UO and other games people generally moved towards whatever gave them the most bang for the buck. Its a one dimensional play environment that leads people to find the best hammer for the job. If the play environment requires multiple tools then people will create those tools but if you keep making it so the hammer is the best thing no matter what then it doesn't really matter what else you do.

Of course its boring if the only thing like that in a game is traps or hidden crap rogues could find. But start adding more and more things to the equation, traps, puzzles, obstacles, etc, etc, etc...and thats just the non-combat crap. You can add a myriad of combat stuff as well so in the end you have this varied, multi-dimensional character that reflects what you want to see.

[Geaux]

wouldnt what you end up with is waiting for uber DPS build to log on his swimmer alt to open the path?

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Gaereth

Of course its boring if the only thing like that in a game is traps or hidden crap rogues could find. But start adding more and more things to the equation, traps, puzzles, obstacles, etc, etc, etc...and thats just the non-combat crap. You can add a myriad of combat stuff as well so in the end you have this varied, multi-dimensional character that reflects what you want to see.

The issue isn't concieving the ideas, it's implementing them. This is simply a case of dreaming of things that can't be done given the current technology and resource limitations. It's all nice to theorize and whatnot, but it really is moot if it isn't practical. I mean, any of us can sit here and dream of the perfect game that would require a holodeck to run.. but what would the point of that be?

[grimsark]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

The issue isn't concieving the ideas, it's implementing them. This is simply a case of dreaming of things that can't be done given the current technology and resource limitations. It's all nice to theorize and whatnot, but it really is moot if it isn't practical. I mean, any of us can sit here and dream of the perfect game that would require a holodeck to run.. but what would the point of that be?

Of course, that is the challenge.