Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[grimsark]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

No, skill based systems would be like using dynamite and lasers to plow fields. Tractors would just be a more refined and advanced class system. You fail at analogies, so let this one die. It isn't going to work.

On the contrary, my analogy is quite clear and relevant.

Analogy:
Take for example, that by using the oxen-plow agriculture was confined to very small, very specialized farms with limited crop rotation and an abundance of field hands required to maintain both the field, and the Oxen.

Subject:
Class based mechanics confine MMORPG’s to very few classes, with extremely over engineered content that is balanced around these limited class rotations, and an abundance of developer time spent balancing content around the limited class structure they FORCED on the game in the first place.

Analogy:
In contrast, the tractor-plow expanded the ability of the farmer to maintain much larger fields, diversify their crop rotations, and reduce the number of field hands they needed to maintain both the fields, and the tractors.

Subject:
Skill based mechanics, DONE RIGHT, will expand the size and over all diversity of game content while allowing for a more customer defined class rotation (as they redefine essential roles themselves, as needed to complete content) and reduce the amount of developer time spent balancing content, freeing time up to develop more of it.

…

In contrast, your dynamite and laser beams analogy is sorely lacking…

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by grimsark

In contrast, your dynamite and laser beams analogy is sorely lacking…

I am going to simply refrain from questioning your intelligence and drop the subject since it is off-topic and I am going to attempt to not allow myself to be dragged into these diversions. Call it victory if you want, I don't care. I disagree with you and that is that.

[grimsark]

Originally Posted by Azrayne

Hasn't the main criticism of skill based systems been that after a while, certain skill setups emerge as clearly dominant choices, everyone respecs to the same one or two templates, and in the end all you have is what is effectively a 'class' system with only a couple classes and no real ability to balance effectively because people will just flock to whatever is currently fotm.

This was caused by poorly implemented skill based systems with an abominable lack of content diversity. If all you have to do in a game is hit things with a club or throw fire balls, skill sets that do those two things best will inevitably dominate the game...

[Draegan]

Thats really fucking stupid. I really don't know what you mean by "DONE RIGHT". Or what poorly implemented skill based systems are. Or what Lack Of Content Diversity (or LoCD for you noobs) you are refering too.

Can you explain what your ideal situation is. Then perhaps me and 2bit will better understand.

[grimsark]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

I am going to simply refrain from questioning your intelligence and drop the subject since it is off-topic and I am going to attempt to not allow myself to be dragged into these diversions. Call it victory if you want, I don't care. I disagree with you and that is that.

Suit yourself. I do not look at this as a competition. I enjoy exchanging ideas with people who are willing to do so constructively.

If you still disagree perhaps taking some time to re-examine your opinion will help you understand mine. Either way, no one looses, as we have both (hopefully) learned something from it.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by grimsark

I enjoy exchanging ideas with people who are willing to do so constructively.

You sort of have to be constructive in the first place for this to occur. Try making points and avoid vagueries and "DONE RIGHTS" as they do not say anything other than "I don't really understand but it sounds cool to me!"

If this topic is going to devolve into a skill vs. class debate then so be it. I can bring forth many specifics (and already have) as to why I feel that a class based system is superior to a skill based one. I can even offer up why, in some situations, that skill based could be better.. but as stated before, it really all depends on the scope and vision of the product in question.

[grimsark]

Originally Posted by Draegan

Thats really fucking stupid. I really don't know what you mean by "DONE RIGHT". Or what poorly implemented skill based systems are. Or what Lack Of Content Diversity (or LoCD for you noobs) you are refering too.

Can you explain what your ideal situation is. Then perhaps me and 2bit will better understand.

Without writing another 3 page definition of what I think "Done Right" means, I will refer you to my previous posts and instead point out what I think "Done Wrong" means in as few words as possible.

…

Skill based mechanics DONE WRONG, are what happens when uncreative individuals attempt to recreate the ‘Class Based’ experience with a ‘Skill Based’ mechanic. Which is ironically exactly what every single skill based MMORPG (save EVE Online) that I know of has done. And as a result their content is as poorly implemented and one sided as if it where developed for a class based game.

Doing this inevitably leads the players to mix and match the abundance of their skill choices to the extremely LIMITED content.

[Vatoreus]

Yea, I've said it before, for a skill based system, look at EVE for how you would build it and pay attention to the checks and balances they've implemented to keep players from having access to all the skills at once. It's the only game that I've played that I can feel like I can play multiple different roles in combat with only quickly changing which ship I'm flying, or what parts I have equipped.

Honestly, if EVE's combat system wasn't as dull as I personally find it (i.e. wish it was a ton more interactive, this applies to the ship control scheme as well) I would probably be playing that and be happy for eternity. EVE is as close to the perfect game as I have ever seen, I just can't play it for long periods of time because of the low interactivity.

[grimsark]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

... it really all depends on the scope and vision of the product in question.

In this point I completely agree. So far, the industry does not have a very compelling record of well made skill based MMORPG's...

I am hoping, one day, to change that personally. But I am not holding my breath.

On a side note. I do enjoy playing many class based games. Though I personally would never design one unless I was forced too. Either due to the engine I was required to work with, or the demands that 'the money' made on the finished project. Though I would not be happy about it.

[Draegan]

EVE skill based system only works for checks and balances because if you go one way, you can't go the other because it will take you a year of real life time to change. It's still the same system.

I will now go back and see what you wrote about "DONE RIGHT".

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Vatoreus

Yea, I've said it before, for a skill based system, look at EVE for how you would build it and pay attention to the checks and balances they've implemented to keep players from having access to all the skills at once. It's the only game that I've played that I can feel like I can play multiple different roles in combat with only quickly changing which ship I'm flying, or what parts I have equipped.

Honestly, if EVE's combat system wasn't as dull as I personally find it (i.e. wish it was a ton more interactive, this applies to the ship control scheme as well) I would probably be playing that and be happy for eternity. EVE is as close to the perfect game as I have ever seen, I just can't play it for long periods of time because of the low interactivity.

EVE is actually a mix of skill based and class based. Sure you choose what skills to train but as soon as you take off in a ship you are the 'class' that ship defines.

EVE doesn't succeed because of its character progression system, it succeeds because it is an engaging drama-filled simulation of war in space. People don't play it to build characters. They play it to dominate their enemies, blow their shit up and control their space.

[Vatoreus]

Originally Posted by Draegan

EVE skill based system only works for checks and balances because if you go one way, you can't go the other because it will take you a year of real life time to change. It's still the same system.

I will now go back and see what you wrote about "DONE RIGHT".

That's not true at all...

For instance, the character I have is about a year, maybe year old when i quit it. In this time, I built it so that he could mine pretty decently and offset it with a hauler to drag stuff back and forth. The same character also has some pretty intensive missile skills for the missile boat he was running missions in, and for PvP I had a lot of manuverability/gunner skills because I played the role of a tackler. Note, I only got this far because it wasn't paced fast enough for me (not skill gain, but combat in general) and there were times where I missed weeks at a time of skill training because I would forget to log in and switch it around if I went on a trip.

[Gaereth]

hmm...the only reason I played it as long as I did was improving my character. I spent time looking up the skills, finding where I wanted to be, mapping a path, etc, etc, etc. Its like playing with talents in WOW to the nth degree.

The carrot to some folks is the facemelting and paperdoll gear chase. To others it is to actually develop the character itself. To me the character is the most important part of the equation because that is what you are playing, the character.

Unfortunately in most of the games atm the skills, abilities, and the growth tied up in your character are almost completely unrelated to the character itself. Its gear. Its where you have been not who you are. Gear trumps all in the current games and I for one would like to see something different.

[Draegan]

Originally Posted by grimsark

...

You really just talked about what you deem as issues, but not solutions. I'm still waiting to see what you think is the right way of doing things.

[grimsark]

Originally Posted by Draegan

EVE skill based system only works for checks and balances because if you go one way, you can't go the other because it will take you a year of real life time to change. It's still the same system.

I will now go back and see what you wrote about "DONE RIGHT".

Personally I no longer play EVE Online. Nor do I have any intention of ever doing so again. (long story) Their skill based system is designed 100% to suit their needs, and attempting to recreate it for anything other then EVE Online part II, would be a mistake. So I am in no way advocating its form of skill mechanics… Just to make that clear.

As for what I had written about DONE RIGHT, it seems (as I checked back on it) I clipped most of that from what I actually posted the other day and apologize if I wasted your time asking you to look for it. I will do what I can to define what I think an example of a skill system ‘done right’ would resemble and post it soon.

But I must warn you that I am reluctant to do so in much depth, as I am in the process of writing up my own character mechanic in the hopes that it may one day be implemented into a game that I lead the design of, and pouring to much of it out to the public will give away many of my relatively unique perspectives (or so I think they are). Thus I will be censoring it quite a bit.