Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[Vatoreus]

Think of if this way. You have tank oriented skills that you can use to tank for a group. This leaves over some other skills that you can use while still filling the tank role for versatility (such as some healing/buffing spells to make a kind of paladin). Now, this other guy who has tanking skills uses some DD skills instead (making him into a warrior essentially). Both tank perfectly fine in small group settings as you go, but in the raid game, the guy who uses the warrior type skills pulls ahead, leaving the paladin behind.

Now, the paladin still wants to tank in the raid game. In WoW for example, he would have to reroll a warrior and level it up and regear it out, but in an open skill system, he'd just have to train up the remaining skills to allow him to switch over into a more warrior oriented role, keeping the gear that fits the tank role, etc. and making him happy and able to continue playing without having to restart his whole character career.

How is this a problem? I'm seriously trying to figure it out, I want an honest, straight up answer to it.

[Draegan]

You're just a grumpy old EQ player. They are not old, they are not inefficient and are not obsolete. They are what defines a Fantasy MMO (or any other fantasy based RPG).

[Twobit Whore]

Both tank perfectly fine in small group settings as you go, but in the raid game, the guy who uses the warrior type skills pulls ahead, leaving the paladin behind.

The problem in that scenario isn't that the paladin can't be a warrior, it's that the game favors the warrior over the paladin. Why wouldn't you adjust the paladin or the content to make the paladin viable as a raid tank instead of just saying 'okay, you be all the classes'?

I don't see any WoW prot paladins griping that they aren't warriors. They don't want to be warriors.. they want to be viable as paladins to do the things that warriors do.. such as tank raid mobs.

[Vatoreus]

I'd love to ask that same question of the class designers over at Blizzard, but I doubt they'd answer.

[Draegan]

Originally Posted by Vatoreus

Think of if this way. You have tank oriented skills that you can use to tank for a group. This leaves over some other skills that you can use while still filling the tank role for versatility (such as some healing/buffing spells to make a kind of paladin). Now, this other guy who has tanking skills uses some DD skills instead (making him into a warrior essentially). Both tank perfectly fine in small group settings as you go, but in the raid game, the guy who uses the warrior type skills pulls ahead, leaving the paladin behind.

Now, the paladin still wants to tank in the raid game. In WoW for example, he would have to reroll a warrior and level it up and regear it out, but in an open skill system, he'd just have to train up the remaining skills to allow him to switch over into a more warrior oriented role, keeping the gear that fits the tank role, etc. and making him happy and able to continue playing without having to restart his whole character career.

How is this a problem? I'm seriously trying to figure it out, I want an honest, straight up answer to it.

Thats a skill based system, which is not a bad system at all. Just different. You start running into how you handle stat allocation as you level up however since a typical Paladin archtype requires more than Str and Stam etc.

One system I played in at one point in my MUD days was pretty interesting that I never saw repeated. The only thing you picked before rerolling stats was your race. Now your race determined how many spell slots and how many skill slots you had. You could learn any skill/spell as long as you had the correct prereqs and enough slots. Worked out pretty well imo.

[grimsark]

Originally Posted by Draegan

You're just a grumpy old EQ player. They are not old, they are not inefficient and are not obsolete. They are what defines a Fantasy MMO (or any other fantasy based RPG).

The horse/oxen and plow defined agriculture for hundreds of years too...

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by grimsark

The horse/oxen and plow defined agriculture for hundreds of years too...

And they still do. Some people may use a motorized ox (tractor) but the basic principles of field plowing are the same.

[grimsark]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

And they still do. Some people may use a motorized ox (tractor) but the basic principles of field plowing are the same.

Then think of skill based mechanics as the tractor of the MMORPG.

Thank you for helping make my point btw.

[Twobit Whore]

No, skill based systems would be like using dynamite and lasers to plow fields. Tractors would just be a more refined and advanced class system. You fail at analogies, so let this one die. It isn't going to work.

[Vatoreus]

what? Twobit, I normally respect your opinion on stuff, but this is just silly. Skill based systems CREATE a more advanced, in-depth class system...

[Azrayne]

Hasn't the main criticism of skill based systems been that after a while, certain skill setups emerge as clearly dominant choices, everyone respecs to the same one or two templates, and in the end all you have is what is effectively a 'class' system with only a couple classes and no real ability to balance effectively because people will just flock to whatever is currently fotm.

[Draegan]

Originally Posted by Azrayne

Hasn't the main criticism of skill based systems been that after a while, certain skill setups emerge as clearly dominant choices, everyone respecs to the same one or two templates, and in the end all you have is what is effectively a 'class' system with only a couple classes and no real ability to balance effectively because people will just flock to whatever is currently fotm.

Yup. In the skill based systems I've played in (MUDs basically, I never bothered with UO) all you had were the same builds. You still had Healers, Nukers, Meleers, backstabbers etc. Everyone ended up with the same skills, and were essentially the same class except in name.

Everyone has a preference on how they want to play Fantasy MMOs. Some people want to play the archer or the shifty rogue or the up in your face warrior etc. What will happen is people will craft their skills that way. When they come to someone else that plays just like they do but only 10x better then they will ask what skills do you have, and change theirs to match the better person until everyone has the same build.

[Vatoreus]

Same shit happens in a class system environment. If you don't put restrictions, etc. on a skill based system, you can get into territory where FOTM builds become rampant, but look at EVE for a great example of a skill system, in the way that it is built and the restrictions of skill usage to fill a role. Now, maybe make it a bit more interactive than sitting in the docking bay and switching b/w skills while offline, but it still is a near perfect example of a skill system done right. (I'm not saying it doesn't have it's faults fyi)

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Azrayne

Hasn't the main criticism of skill based systems been that after a while, certain skill setups emerge as clearly dominant choices, everyone respecs to the same one or two templates, and in the end all you have is what is effectively a 'class' system with only a couple classes and no real ability to balance effectively because people will just flock to whatever is currently fotm.

This is the difference in theory and practice. In theory everyone could train whatever skills they wanted and be whatever they want. In practice everyone settles on a FOTM build and becomes a class.

Skill-based systems invariably drift towards class-based systems by nature, so why wouldn't you just go ahead and start with a class based system and remove all the headaches associated with it?

[Draegan]

Originally Posted by Vatoreus

Same shit happens in a class system environment. If you don't put restrictions, etc. on a skill based system, you can get into territory where FOTM builds become rampant, but look at EVE for a great example of a skill system, in the way that it is built and the restrictions of skill usage to fill a role. Now, maybe make it a bit more interactive than sitting in the docking bay and switching b/w skills while offline, but it still is a near perfect example of a skill system done right. (I'm not saying it doesn't have it's faults fyi)

The reason why EVE skill system works in their game is because you can't actively change your skills or make yourself better. You just have to wait. There are no other options. Which is why most people find EVE boring.