Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[Draegan]

Originally Posted by Maxxius

Sorry Twobit, going to have to disagree with you there. Both EQ and now WOW are both games tuned around 2 specific classes, and because of that it makes casual grouping and advancing extremely difficult. Many people simply don't want to waste hours of their time lfging for certain classes. They WANT to do instances, for example, but they just CAN'T for the lack of a required class. This is not fun. This needs to be changed.

I PUG a lot in WOW when I want to run 5 mans. If I'm looking for a tank I can look for warriors, palidans or druids. All work fine. Same with healers. I don't waste hours at all.

Only time you run in to trouble because of spec is when you're raiding or doing some heroics.

[Vagoo]

Please Choose Your Class:
Berserker
Paladin
Shadow Knight
Chaos Knight
Warrior
Inquisitor
Crusader
Brute
Warlord
BladeMaster
Rogue
Ranger
Hunter
Ninja
Mage
Necromancer
Sorcerer
Warlock
Witch
Enchanter
Illusionist
Chronomancer
Archer
Cleric
Priest
Bishop
Decurser
Spellbreaker
Reflectionist
Monk
Shield Bearer
Songslinger
Bard
Coercer
Shaman
Witchdoctor

thats a trick post because all you have to do is click "ninja" and you know its going to own

[Gaereth]

That is kinda what EQ2 was trying to avoid initially with the 3 paths, then specialization. It does make sense but it was very poorly implemented initially.

This was in response to Draegan's post.

[Genjiro]

Originally Posted by Maxxius

Many think EQ from Kunark forward, but pre Kunark EQ didn't have any really required group classes (tho once enchanters got clarity they became so sought after).

There is a certain amount of truth to this statement, even post Kunark. The fastest exp I can remember getting in EQ was me pulling, a shaman, cleric, and I think 3 rangers in Seb. God we just mowed everything down, rangers would snap agro as soon as I got in camp, and we were in a big enough room that they just kited in small circles. Was a blast. Generally, the holy trinity of war/cleric/ench was reserved for people who just plain sucked and used it as a crutch to compensate, as even though it was hardly required, there is no doubting its effectiveness as the basis of a group.

[Twobit Whore]

What you people really want but are too stupid to realize it is a classless skill-based system. Except some of you apparently need the devs to outline every possible combination and slap a title on it for you.

[Mkopec1]

Originally Posted by Draegan

I want to repeat this again. If I'm a new player and I log into your game to try it out and I see this in the character creation section:



I'd tell the game to go fuck off because my desk just broke under the weight of the 500 page manual the game came with to describe each class.

Clearly you dont like variety. So lets just make games with...
WARRIOR
CLERIC
RANGER
MAGE

For you simple minded folks.

[Pyros]

Well even in classless skill based system, you have balance issues. Melees sucked in general in UO and AC for a long time, before they buffed it enough that melees were overpowered, because you can stack various skills in combinations that the devs might not have expected. I think it's just as much of a pain to balance a skill based game than it is for a class based game, but it's easier to pinpoint issues in class based(eh barbarians are doing too much dmg, just nerf their ability, and it won't affect paladins dmg)

And Draeg I don't really agree, while it might definitely be a problem for casuals who log in the game for the first time when they see that, it doesn't have to be presented that way, mainly with path choosing after certain levels and all the usual crap you see in those games. You don't have to get a 27classes choice right from the start. Also, as an experienced mmo player, out of that list I can probably pinpoint it down to like 4choices I'd like to play, simply based on the name or on a short description. I don't need to know what a pirate does cause I won't play one anyway.

[Mkopec1]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

What you people really want but are too stupid to realize it is a classless skill-based system. Except some of you apparently need the devs to outline every possible combination and slap a title on it for you.

And then you have in essence what you are advocating against... One Spec of skills which is better than the rest. Its inevitable in a pure classless skill game.

Heloo Cookie Cutter build of the month. Battle mage!!!!!

[Drtyrm]

Did you play FFXI long enough to get into grouping at all? Subjobs in FFXI operated at half the level of your currently selected main job. So many combinations were just fruitless that I didn't ever see subjobs as a fix for set class roles. Your group needed a healer, period. Not someone with a white mage sub to throw level 25 heals with no mp. My favorite part of the system was that you were always advancing your character, no alts etc. Also made your rep a bit more important, since all your playtime was linked to one name. You could probably get Vinen in here for a lot better information as to how the subjob system affected that particular mmorpg.

In addition, I shudder to think how a class system like you are proposing would effect the itemization of your game.

[tad10]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

What you people really want but are too stupid to realize it is a classless skill-based system. Except some of you apparently need the devs to outline every possible combination and slap a title on it for you.

No. I do not want a classless skill-based system. Classes are useful in that they are a identification shortcut to other players. This is why talent trees are fucked they obfuscate what should be a simple id. Skill-based systems are even worse.

Edit: tym -- yeah I know it operates at half-the level. I recognize you still needed a healer. But I'm saying that if there are no pure healers and that everyone is based off a dual-role archetype also allowing subjobs helps soloability so you don't have to fuck with the dual-role (which caused ability bleed in VG).

My main point is that balancing for solo and group play fucks things up because inevitably healer-types solo better (for all the obvious reasons). What VG did was to do shitty things like give DPS classes minor healing abilities -- which choad up the attribute bar and are still pretty fucked up. What they should have done is have subjobs. Being a 20/10 (Monk/Disciple) wouldn't make me a potential healer for a group -- it would allow me to solo much, much better. That's what I mean by subjobs solve the soloability balancing problem -- which is all I care about for this discussion.

[Maxxius]

Originally Posted by Draegan

I PUG a lot in WOW when I want to run 5 mans. If I'm looking for a tank I can look for warriors, palidans or druids. All work fine. Same with healers. I don't waste hours at all.

Only time you run in to trouble because of spec is when you're raiding or doing some heroics.

Baloney, I pug all the time too and you aren't doing 5 man bosses without the 2 pures easily and you know it. You can get away with non heroic instances if the paladin for example is actually protective with solid gear but so few are. And you'd want that feral druid not the balanced one. But any warrior can still handle the role when he puts on his shield and changes his stance. Maybe a resto shaman could handle some of the lower instances, but on those high end boss fights you want a dam holy priest plain and simple.

[Gaereth]

Skill based would be preferable to many of us....but they tend to have issues in the balancing and it also tends to get dismissed with the comment "Flavor of the week" and a chuckle.

Personally, I have always felt that was a cop out. A well designed system has built in checks and balances and more of a tree feel than anything. You start down a branch and you are unable to go down some other branches.

But, the devs always talk about people screwing up their characters, too many choices, blah blah blah.

How about someone makes a game with those choices that allows the folks that think they know what they are doing to make those choices themselves....but you also provide templates for those that just want a certain feel. That would allow many among us to pick and choose the minutia while others can have a path shown to them in pretty sparkles. Some folks can cookie cutter and others can pick and choose as they like.

I do believe that you have to have the ability to change your spec though. It really isn't fun to find out what you picked isn't what you thought it was going to be. But, you shouldn't have to start new unless you want to. Let us change who we are and what we do by picking the right talents and gear rather than having to pull up another character. For instance...it wouldn't really work to have rogue talents and tanking gear, or magic gear.

Then I would actually support the respec cost like in WOW, the travel to a trainer, etc, etc. Make it mean something. At the moment in WOW they should just let you have 2 specs saved and you can switch them while out of combat and out of instances for free.

[Pyros]

Originally Posted by Maxxius

Baloney, I pug all the time too and you aren't doing 5 man bosses without the 2 pures easily and you know it. You can get away with non heroic instances if the paladin for example is actually protective with solid gear but so few are. And you'd want that feral druid not the balanced one. But any warrior can still handle the role when he puts on his shield and changes his stance. Maybe a holy shaman could handle some of the lower instances, but on those high end boss fights you want a dam holy priest plain an simple.

Actually it depends a lot on the quality of the player too. You could be 5maning some crap with a shitty prot warrior and have more trouble than if you were doing it with a holy paladin tanking. I know cause I tanked as a holy paladin quite a bit with guildmates, for shards/rep farming and stuff, and it was fine on most encounters, but when I used my hunter in PUGs, I sometimes had to tank with my pet because the prot warrior couldn't do shit(I guess prot wasn't really a good spec for 5mans anyway, because of how rage is generated).

This is one of the issues tho, while you can design hybrids who can fill the role of pure classes, if they're played by retards, it doesn't help one bit, and I have yet to see a Retard filter on LFG tools. That's why I think having only hybrids might help a bit, since it wouldn't matter which class the retard is playing if they're balanced equally.

[Mkopec1]

Shadowbane had a wicked Class/skill/race/rune system which rocked. You still had some cookie cutter BS going on, but you also had some off the wall viable builds which made you go WTF? Untill you got owned by them.

[Rezz]

On the FFXI angle, there were many combinations that were inherently stronger than other combinations of a similar type. You wanted a Ninja/Warrior or Paladin/Warrior for a tank, not a Warrior/anything. They were just better combinations. A Dark Knight/Thief was better damage than a Dark Knight/Warrior. They both had very similar abilities, but certain ones complimented the desired role better. That's just how the game was designed. Yes, it allowed you tons of flexibility, but there were "great" combinations that quickly became obvious as you leveled. The option to have that second job also was given at a relatively low level (18) and you could change your current job at any time when you hit one of the major cities if you wanted to level your desired subjob before it became available.

Regardless, a skill based system would only be appealing to me if certain armor types and abilities required a certain amount of synergy between certain trees, so that in the end there's no point in having it be a skill based system in the first place, imo. I like being a distinct class with a distinct role, regardless of whether I perform that role better or worse than other similar styled classes in different situations. But I want a distinct role. If I have the ability to change that role but it also changes the way I'm labeled and the way my avatar is presented, then that's A-OK too.

And there was a pretty large difference between how the tank classes did their jobs in Vanguard, it was -not- like EQ2 in the slightest.