Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[tad10]

Originally Posted by Draegan

It's not stupid, the tank and the healer are at the very heart of what a Fantasy RPG is. The only way it'll change is if you change genres.

What would you suggest instead?

I think it is clear that you don't need pure classes in an MMO. The balance problem crops up when as noted by Rezz when you have a pure class (War) competing with hybrid classes (Pal/SK/whatever) for a position (Tank).

Look at all the bitching in wow over feral druids. Because they were tanking better than the 'pure' class (assuming that prot War is the pure class. Talent trees suck -- see below. Though subjobs do not).

Basically you should either have all pure classes or all hybrids. Happily I can disagree with 2bit and say that there weren't too many classes in VG or EQ -- in fact there weren't enough classes. As long as you have a clear matrix of what classes are supposed to do your players will be able to figure it out.

Lets face it 27-29 distinct classes with clearly defined roles selected from two of the eight archetypes (tank, healer, melee dps, arcane/ranged dps, buff, debuff, CC and Pet) would be a lot easier to figure out than talent trees. And as long as you take a reasonable approach to abilities (less is more) its more managable from a design standpoint than talent trees. Come on 2bit even you have to admit that as WoW's 9 classes have to be balanced all the way down each of the three talent trees - you basically have 27 potential classes in WoW.

Compare:
Oh its a Pally -- that is tank/healer. Oh its a Monk -- that is Tank/DPS -- Oh its a Shaman that is Healer/DPS.

To

It's a priest. Is he shadow? No clue. It's a warrior. What spec? Or (one of my favorite (?) incidents back when I played WoW) we had just got into the water temple in the Swamp (the one with the shitty sightlines) where there are a bunch of 3 pulls. So we asked the Rogue to sap. He comes back with 'I don't have imp. sap' The entire party was like wtf?

[Twobit Whore]

27 classes isn't enough? You are fucking crazy. There are 4 roles that need to be performed in an MMO. Tanking, healing, damaging and controlling. Some of these roles can be performed by one class at the same time. When you have too many classes you have overlap and redundancies. The only thing that varies is a spell name and some particle effects. It makes it much more difficult to balance because you have multiple classes filling the same role and you have to make them different but equal. It's a nightmare. No class can feel special because there are 4 other classes that do the same thing in basically the same way.

[Mkopec1]

Originally Posted by Gaereth

The need for massive healing during a fight creates a situation where or more people must provide that healing. Its not dynamic, its not responsive, its whackamole with hp bars.

Now...if you switched things a bit and still had the possibility of people receiving that much damage but gave healers mitigation abilities, directional shielding, blocking, etc, etc then the healer is fighting what the monster is doing instead of fighting what the hitpoint bars are doing.

The healing role has been turned into a health battery more than anything else. You fill people up. If you were to change it so they protected people from going down in a dynamic and fun way then you would be doing well.

This is the key right here. Make healing a bit more fun rather than stressing about which health bar is about to go down to nothing, essentially playing whack a mole. And then maybe you wont be LF Healer for a hour. As a healer youre totally removed from the combat/encounter and just staring at your health bars. And only the very rare player wants to do that shit over and over.

Its also a thank less job. No one reaches around when you whack a mole better and everyone lives, but youre usually the first one to get bitched at when you wipe.


I also like the trinity in these games but it needs to be balanced and thought out better so everyone is having a good time, not just the DPS department. For instance the Defensive target idea in Vanguard helped healing tremendously. The idea of "cone" type healing, group heals, or AE healing, so you dont have to pay such close attention to the individual bars. Shit like that goes a long way to make healing more rewarding and less of a chore.

[Fayvren]

The need for massive healing during a fight creates a situation where or more people must provide that healing. Its not dynamic, its not responsive, its whackamole with hp bars.

Now...if you switched things a bit and still had the possibility of people receiving that much damage but gave healers mitigation abilities, directional shielding, blocking, etc, etc then the healer is fighting what the monster is doing instead of fighting what the hitpoint bars are doing.

The healing role has been turned into a health battery more than anything else. You fill people up. If you were to change it so they protected people from going down in a dynamic and fun way then you would be doing well.

This is precisely what is wrong with the entire design of MMO games at this point. Massive amounts of damage and massive amounts of healing required.
It's the whole reason "tanks" are even needed.

All these games have taken the perverted forms of EQ Classes and just made them worse and worse over time. Rather than all classes having some survivability they've taken it to the extreme and basically neutered them into the narrowest roles possible. The protection warrior as the default warrior template is the biggest joke of all.

D&D models for games have always been among the most fun where you can enter encounters with different setups and still be viable. All the classes had reasonably high survivability given the proper preparation. Rogues avoided getting hit, clerics and fighters had armor, mages had spells that absorbed dmg. They ALL did dmg as well.

Instead now we get games where you have damage dealers, healers and survivors (tanks) and thats pretty much ALL you do when you play that class. It sucks, and its why hybrids are generally poorly conceived.

All this is a result of crap AI more than anything. "Threat" needs to go. Its an utterly insane way of programming targetting and everything else that is broken and unfun about MMOs is a result of this. Rather than figuring out how to code AI that is really meaningful we get tank and spank and all the perverted derivations. I mean seriously, who goes to battle and thinks to themselves "wait, maybe I shouldn't kill as fast because then I might attract attention"

Fix the AI so we dont need to tank and heal. And then the classes might fix themselves.

[Mkopec1]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

No class can feel special because there are 4 other classes that do the same thing in basically the same way.

It not done inthe same way though. There are nuances which are diffrent and each plays a bit diffrent, which gives people variety and tons of replayability. A blood mage and Shaman in VG were worlds apart in play style, and yet essentially performed the same role in a group setting. The system in EQ2 and VG was set up so you knew exactly what you were getting, in wow its a crap shoot WTF your getting every time you invite any of the core jobs such as healing, or tanking.

Youre telling me you could not design 4 healing classes which essentially performed the same way inside of a group yet played 100% diffrent? And brought their own arsenal of goodies and extras which set them apart? Where is your imagination?

[Twobit Whore]

No one else in the group/raid gives a fuck how you do what you do, all they care about is that you do it. I don't think VG is a shining example of anything considering the total lack of balance across the spectrum. If one class is 5% better at the role you need filled, that class is going to be the one that people look for.

In a perfect world you could have a million classes that were all equally viable yet different and compelling, but this is not a perfect world.

[tad10]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

27 classes isn't enough? You are fucking crazy. There are 4 roles that need to be performed in an MMO. Tanking, healing, damaging and controlling. Some of these roles can be performed by one class at the same time. When you have too many classes you have overlap and redundancies. The only thing that varies is a spell name and some particle effects. It makes it much more difficult to balance because you have multiple classes filling the same role and you have to make them different but equal. It's a nightmare. No class can feel special because there are 4 other classes that do the same thing in basically the same way.

You are not a special and unique snowflake Bob. Special and unique snowflakes are what causes all the fucking problems with class balance in the first place.

Every class should be a hybrid and if designed properly, no they don't do the same things in the same way.

You can have Tank/CC, Tank/Buff, Tank/Debuff, Tank/Pet, Tank/Arcane DPS, Tank/Melee DPS and Tank/Healers

All six can tank, but all six work in groups in different ways. Lets give them names Inquisitor, Paladin, Shadow Knight, Beastlord, Chaos Knight, Barbarian, and Cleric. The only thing they have to be "equal" in is in their ability to tank generic mobs (i.e. all tanks wear plate and can use shields, all have similiar taunt abilities). They are already different by the fact their second attribute set comes from a different archetype (and yes 2bit there are more than 4 archetypes in MMO). There is only one class that can Taunt and Heal (Cleric) only one class that can Taunt and has a Pet (Beastlord) etc.

People like variety -- if there is one running complaint about WoW -- even by people who still like and play the game it is that there aren't enough classes. The only, and I mean only, game where people bitch about two many classes is EQ2 -- and that's because, AFICT, they didn't run the hybrid matrix correctly when they initialy setup the classes. So yes, people will feel special with their Shadow Knight as compared to a Beastlord or Cleric or etc. And vice-versa. Probably much more special (which seems to be important to you) then they would as Shadow-spec Priest #501.

And for fuck's sake -- I didn't say 27 classes wasn't enough I said that WoW's talent trees made, in effect, 27 classes. You were bitching that it was impossible to balance 27 classes (the number on non-degenerate classes in my list) I just think they fucked up on the talent tree choices as they generally have one "pure" talent tree (e.g. healing tree for priests, prot for warriros) and two hybrid trees.

Developers need to learn that balance isn't possible between pure classes and hybrids. The best solution is to just make every fucking class a hybrid.

* * *

Oh and you're fucking wrong on races too. Races do matter. And mo' variety is mo' better. Raki were $$$. Hell even I would return to WoW if they ever made Pandaren a playable race. And for any fucking mangina that is about to make a yiff comment you can go fuck yourself.

[Mkopec1]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

No one else in the group/raid gives a fuck how you do what you do, all they care about is that you do it. I don't think VG is a shining example of anything considering the total lack of balance across the spectrum. If one class is 5% better at the role you need filled, that class is going to be the one that people look for.

In a perfect world you could have a million classes that were all equally viable yet different and compelling, but this is not a perfect world.

Were taking about concepts here, not what a shitty game VG was, bro. The 5% bullshit is only going to pertain to the leet min-maxers and catasses which will find some shit to min-max no matter how perfectly balanced system you have. in a regular day to day grouping situation that 5% less healing which is offset by some buff, simply a run buff or better DS is enough to look balanced in any normal persons eyes.

At least in VG you knew that if you got a Blood Mage or a Shaman he would heal, because guess what, he is a healer. In WoW you invite a priest or a fucking Shaman and you dont know WTF youre getting. Well 9 times out of 10 your gonna get a shadow priest or Enh shaman, because, guess what, they are more fun to play.

[Maxxius]

Originally Posted by Fayvren

This is precisely what is wrong with the entire design of MMO games at this point. Massive amounts of damage and massive amounts of healing required.
It's the whole reason "tanks" are even needed.

All these games have taken the perverted forms of EQ Classes and just made them worse and worse over time. Rather than all classes having some survivability they've taken it to the extreme and basically neutered them into the narrowest roles possible.

.

Exactly. And it really goes with how EQ evolved and how WOW is now evolving. Many think EQ from Kunark forward, but pre Kunark EQ didn't have any really required group classes (tho once enchanters got clarity they became so sought after). WOW was really the same too when it first came out. Yeah you needed class "types" but not needed class specifics until you got into the raiding stage.

It was the development of raiding that causes this necessity. And EQ became worse and worse as the expansions rolled out because of this "raiding centric" mentality. Servers became ghost towns once WOW hit, and WOW at the time really was the anti-EQ game. Sadly, with TBC WOW is starting to turn into another EQ and I suspect it has alot to do with Tigole's (and possibly Furor's, tho I really don't know what influence he has in the game aside from designing quests) EQ raiding background. Accordingly you just keep needing certain required classes in order to progress and see content.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by tad10

Oh and you're fucking wrong on races too. Races do matter. And mo' variety is mo' better. Raki were $$$. Hell even I would return to WoW if they ever made Pandaren a playable race. And for any fucking mangina that is about to make a yiff comment you can go fuck yourself.

I never even once used the word race.

Originally Posted by Mkopec1

At least in VG you knew that if you got a Blood Mage or a Shaman he would heal, because guess what, he is a healer. In WoW you invite a priest or a fucking Shaman and you dont know WTF youre getting.

I don't recall saying that WoW was the epitome of class balance perfection either. I do think that EQ1 and WoW are much closer than EQ2 or Vanguard though. That doesn't mean they are perfect, but within the established paradigms that we have in current MMOs, EQ1/WoW class structure is far preferable to the lame archetype system.

[tad10]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

I don't think VG is a shining example of anything considering the total lack of balance across the spectrum.

You aren't answering the question. Do you or do you not agree that the vast majority of players who played with healing classes in VG -- pre disciple/shaman nerf -- say beta4/open beta -- Shaman/BM/Cleric and Disciple felt that all these healing classes filled the same functionality in a group while at the same time the vast majority of players who were playing S/BM/C/D felt that their class was distinct from the other healing classes.

I will answer for you -- you agree -- because if you say you don't agree than that's just fucking bullshit. This was why the disciple (and later shaman) nerf hurt the game so much and why yes the class designer should be fired for those nerfs alone. Prior to the nerfs -- it did not fucking matter to the group that was LF Healer -- any one of the four could fill the role and a group was happy to have any of them. At the same time the players who played Shaman, Bloodmage, Disciples and Clerics all felt their class was sufficiently unique from the other classes. Clerics were happy that in a pinch they could tank, Disciples liked being right up in the middle of the action kicking the shit out of stuff as they healed, BMs enjoyed nukes and whatever the hell else they did and Shaman of course had their pets and buffs.

As I noted in my original post VG basically did this:
Healer/Tank (Cleric), Healer/DPS (Disciple), Healer/Arcane DPS (Bloodmage) and Healer/Pet (Shaman) -- this is a simplification as they all also had unique buffs and some had debuffs as well.

Now of course VG's class designer fucked everything up -- but for a bright shining moment it was an example of what MMOs could do without abominations like Talent Trees.

Edit: Re: Race -- hmm must have been another fucking thread. Sorry man.

[Drtyrm]

Originally Posted by Mkopec1

In WoW you invite a priest or a fucking Shaman and you dont know WTF youre getting.

I don't know about you, but when I invite folks in WoW i ask them what spec they are first. Or watching the LFG channel you see "Lv 70 Shadowpriest lfg" etc.

Tad, did you play FFXI to any degree? I'd like to know what sort of experience you have with the "subjobs" you are claiming will be the end-all be-all of class balance and design issues.

[tad10]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

EQ1/WoW class structure is far preferable to the lame archetype system.

You have spent the last two pages bitching about balance and class identity and you now tell me you prefer talent trees?

Are you fucking serious?

Edit: Re subjobing. Yes I played FFXI until the UI killed me one to many times -- point is to avoid ability creep (e.g. Monks getting healing abilities) by allowing subjobing. How close this is to high-end FFXI subjobbing I don't know or care. I just want to stop crap like giving inappropriate abilities to classes purely because developers feel they need the ability for that class to solo better. Monks don't need healing abilities if they can subjob as a Cleric. You disagree?

[Maxxius]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

I never even once used the word race.



I don't recall saying that WoW was the epitome of class balance perfection either. I do think that EQ1 and WoW are much closer than EQ2 or Vanguard though. That doesn't mean they are perfect, but within the established paradigms that we have in current MMOs, EQ1/WoW class structure is far preferable to the lame archetype system.

Sorry Twobit, going to have to disagree with you there. Both EQ and now WOW are both games tuned around 2 specific classes, and because of that it makes casual grouping and advancing extremely difficult. Many people simply don't want to waste hours of their time lfging for certain classes. They WANT to do instances, for example, but they just CAN'T for the lack of a required class. This is not fun. This needs to be changed.

[Draegan]

I want to repeat this again. If I'm a new player and I log into your game to try it out and I see this in the character creation section:

Please Choose Your Class:
Berserker
Paladin
Shadow Knight
Chaos Knight
Warrior
Inquisitor
Crusader
Brute
Warlord
BladeMaster
Rogue
Ranger
Hunter
Ninja
Mage
Necromancer
Sorcerer
Warlock
Witch
Enchanter
Illusionist
Chronomancer
Archer
Cleric
Priest
Bishop
Decurser
Spellbreaker
Reflectionist
Monk
Shield Bearer
Songslinger
Bard
Coercer
Shaman
Witchdoctor

I'd tell the game to go fuck off because my desk just broke under the weight of the 500 page manual the game came with to describe each class.