US April Hardware Sales, NPD

[RiskyChris]

Originally Posted by Wizerud

The point about great games being on all consoles? All other things being equal, the great games on the PS3 and XBox 360 will be viewed as better than those on the Wii due to their significantly higher hardware capabilities. If Nintendo is relying on "innovation" to make up the difference I think they'll be in for a surprise or two.

Bullshit. A great game doesn't become a great game because of graphics. Do we forget all the timeless classics of generations gone by because they don't hold up to new standards? No. There are dozens of older games that kick the snot out of current titles.

You are the one who is in for a surprise or two. Wii will have considerably better titles than you're willing to admit.

[woqqqa]

Originally Posted by RiskyChris

Bullshit. A great game doesn't become a great game because of graphics. Do we forget all the timeless classics of generations gone by because they don't hold up to new standards? No. There are dozens of older games that kick the snot out of current titles.

You are the one who is in for a surprise or two. Wii will have considerably better titles than you're willing to admit.

Well, we don't know about that. Certainly graphics don't make the game, but I haven't seen all that many Wii titles that take advantage of the Wii-mote properly. I'm sure the first-party Nintendo stuff will be great, as always...but considering that quite a few companies didn't even bother developing for the Wii at first, and are now in a mad dash to try and catch up, I'm not sure if the quality of 3rd-party games is going to be all that great.

[RiskyChris]

Originally Posted by woqqqa

Well, we don't know about that. Certainly graphics don't make the game, but I haven't seen all that many Wii titles that take advantage of the Wii-mote properly. I'm sure the first-party Nintendo stuff will be great, as always...but considering that quite a few companies didn't even bother developing for the Wii at first, and are now in a mad dash to try and catch up, I'm not sure if the quality of 3rd-party games is going to be all that great.

If Nintendo can find ways to use the controller, 3rd parties will also or die trying. It's financial suicide to not put good men to work on Wii, the future market leader.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by RiskyChris

Everything is fucking black and white: 360/PS3 will get mature games, Wii won't.

I don't fucking believe for one minute that if the market is there for Wii that companies wouldn't support it.

Now you're putting words in people's mouths.

Of course the Wii will get "mature" games. Will it get the same amount? Hrm, no, not likely. More importantly - will it get different kinds of "mature games"? I sure hope so.

The Wii has a much broader audience. Completely casual? Of course not. It's going to have a more diverse range of people than even the PS2 had due to the huge new demographic that it's adding to the market.

Yes, it's adding a new demographic to the market. Everyone knows it. There's people who own a Wii who would never even think about touching a console before.

Does that mean it will cater exclusively to them? No, of course not. They're a very large part of it, but by no means are they the entire thing.

But it does make it a much broader audience than the X360/PS3.

The X360/PS3 HD market is a much more condensed and much more specific section of gamers. What does that mean? It's easier to sell and push certain things to them. And the type of gamer that makes up the X360/PS3 demographic is probably going to be much, much larger than its counterpart on the Wii.

So it's more likely to get the GTAs, the shooters, the racing games, the Last Remnant/Lost Odyssey type RPGs, the Devil May Crys, ect, and what not.

At least... that's my impression of the current situation and how it will progress. Do you see it another way? How do you see the specifics of things? Really, what's your in-depth view on it? I want a real thought out perspective and answer - not some "ZOMG the Wii will sell 80 million it has to have all the games" brush off bullshit.


And then there's another side to these games. They're just going to be flat-out better on the X360 than on the Wii.

Let's use Spider-man 3 for example. Yes, that's a really harsh example, but it's probably the best one we can use out of the current games.

It looks like dogshit on the Wii, compared to the X360 or otherwise, and the Wiimote adds absolutely no value worth the trade off.

The same will be said for any racing game, any flying game, any big massive-city sandbox game, any big 3D traditional RPG, the list goes on.


The Wii needs something else to sell games. It needs completely new designs - traditional shit will just turn out poorly on it.

Making a massive sandbox game on the Wii? Bad idea. Making Trauma Center on the Wii? Good idea.

Seriously - why the fuck would any of you want something like Metal Gear Solid on the Wii? Or GTA? Why? They're not something suited to the system and arguably they will have a larger audience on the X360.


Now, as much as I've been shitting on Dragon Quest Swords - it's a good idea for a Wii game. A great idea infact.

Now personally, I hate games on rails. I think it's one of the most cop out, idiotic, unfun concepts ever.

But really, DQ Swords is a genius concept for the Wii.

Dragon Quest? Massive broad appeal. Everybody loves or can love Dragon Quest. The title/series isn't exceptionally hardcore or pushy with heavy themes or anti-christianity shit like oh... just about every other RPG line out there. It's more light hearted, it's fun.

First person "RPG" where you do Wiimote swing motions to preset sword attacks? Good use of it. Not super awesome or fantastic - but very good, something nearly anyone can do. It sounds like something that will be very easy to pick up.

Monster/world design? It's cutesy, it's colorful. It's easy on the eyes. It's a mass appeal style.

Rails? Yeah, I fucking hate rails - but again, it makes so just about anyone can play it. But the other big part of it is - it makes it so there is a very, very static camera. This allows for a visual design where they can push what they Wii can show you a lot better than some big majestic full 3D camera game.

DQ Swords is a good type of design for a Wii game. It's not super-awesome or anything, but it's a step in the right direction.


So yeah - I'm hoping that the mature games that do come to the Wii are of a new type of design. I'm really hoping for that. Tossing a GTA4 port on the Wii is absolutely not a good idea. It will turn out bad, it will sell poorly compared to its X360 counterpart, it will be embarassing.

Making a Wii GTA titled game specifically tailored to the Wii's strengths? Great, let's see it.

Making your standard "mature" game on the Wii? What's the point?

I think the Wii will have mature games - but they're not going to be the normal type of mature games we've seen up till now. More than likely most of the "normal" shit will be made on the X360. It's a better system for it and really, I think it's going to be a better place to sell it.

Now when people start coming up with new concepts for mature games that work well with the Wii - it's going to be a big money maker and a great place to sell those new types of games.

[Lorrac]

wiimote control design is rather tricky - you either design the game thinking on it or it s gonna be a hell to adapt dual shock control schemes to it.

[RiskyChris]

Originally Posted by Sean

But it does make it a much broader audience than the X360/PS3.

The X360/PS3 HD market is a much more condensed and much more specific section of gamers. What does that mean? It's easier to sell and push certain things to them. And the type of gamer that makes up the X360/PS3 demographic is probably going to be much, much larger than its counterpart on the Wii.

So it's more likely to get the GTAs, the shooters, the racing games, the Last Remnant/Lost Odyssey type RPGs, the Devil May Crys, ect, and what not.

...

And then there's another side to these games. They're just going to be flat-out better on the X360 than on the Wii.

Let's use Spider-man 3 for example. Yes, that's a really harsh example, but it's probably the best one we can use out of the current games.

It looks like dogshit on the Wii, compared to the X360 or otherwise, and the Wiimote adds absolutely no value worth the trade off.


The same will be said for any racing game, any flying game, any big massive-city sandbox game, any big 3D traditional RPG, the list goes on.


The Wii needs something else to sell games. It needs completely new designs - traditional shit will just turn out poorly on it.

Making a massive sandbox game on the Wii? Bad idea. Making Trauma Center on the Wii? Good idea.

Seriously - why the fuck would any of you want something like Metal Gear Solid on the Wii? Or GTA? Why? They're not something suited to the system and arguably they will have a larger audience on the X360.

...


So yeah - I'm hoping that the mature games that do come to the Wii are of a new type of design. I'm really hoping for that. Tossing a GTA4 port on the Wii is absolutely not a good idea. It will turn out bad, it will sell poorly compared to its X360 counterpart, it will be embarassing.

Making a Wii GTA titled game specifically tailored to the Wii's strengths? Great, let's see it.

Making your standard "mature" game on the Wii? What's the point?

I think the Wii will have mature games - but they're not going to be the normal type of mature games we've seen up till now. More than likely most of the "normal" shit will be made on the X360. It's a better system for it and really, I think it's going to be a better place to sell it.

Now when people start coming up with new concepts for mature games that work well with the Wii - it's going to be a big money maker and a great place to sell those new types of games.

First, I think we're focusing too much on this supposed "mature" game that I don't think any of us can clearly define, but for the sake of argument let's keep it rolling. =) Great post, I agree with pretty much everything.

In order of bolding...

1) Absolutely. One of the advantages to Microsoft's fanbase is the concentration of tastes. Combined with the absolutely outstanding software sales in the US, there will be no shortage of quality "mature" titles hitting the system.

2) It's totally unfair to cherry pick Spiderman 3. It's a movie cash-in that showed no attempt to exploit the Wii hardware. A game like Super Mario Galaxy can stand up to the best 360 games no problem. 'Course, that's my opinion but I look for presentation and artistic cohesiveness before straight up tech achievements. That's why I find Gears to be such a great experience -- it melds incredible graphics with a world that is believable.

3) I don't buy for one second that racing games, and to a lesser extent flight games (those will a smaller scope, of course, AC6 can't be done on Wii the way it is) will be shunned on Wii. Excite Truck shows that a good racer can be done.

4) Traditional games in what sense? Try out Godfather for a wonderful example of a traditional game that Wii takes to new levels.

5) I don't want MGS or GTA on Wii. I think, generally, a game like GTA4 with smaller ambitions would turn out wonderfully on Wii's hardware, but sandbox games I want on my beefy systems. Period.

6) We need to define the standard "mature" game.

Again, great post.

[Sean]

Racing and flying games are ones where next gen hardware visuals and heavy online support is key now. See Forza, Ace Combat, ect.

That and the Wiimote does not add anything to them - if anything it detracts from using a regular controller. It's just a really awkward medium for those genres.

If you want a real immersive experience with them then you use either a wheel or a joystick anyways.

That's not to say a decent or good racer or flying game can't be done on the Wii - just that the Wii adds absolutely nothing to the experience. It only detracts from it with lesser visuals, physics, controls, potential online support, basically every aspect is potentially worse.

[Sean]

Spider-man 3: I said it was a harsh example, but I didn't really mean to cherry pick it. There's just not much else in the cross-platform pickings.

[RiskyChris]

Originally Posted by Sean

Racing and flying games are ones where next gen hardware visuals and heavy online support is key now. See Forza, Ace Combat, ect.

That and the Wiimote does not add anything to them - if anything it detracts from using a regular controller. It's just a really awkward medium for those genres.

If you want a real immersive experience with them then you use either a wheel or a joystick anyways.

That's not to say a decent or good racer can't be done on the Wii - just that the Wii adds absolutely nothing to the experience. It only detracts from it with lesser visuals, physics, controls, basically every aspect is potentially worse.

I don't think Wii is the proper home for realistic racers/flight sims, at all. I'm not prepared to accept that Wii adds nothing to these genres, provided the game has a bias towards arcade gameplay. Excite Truck, which admittedly feels like a tad more tuning was needed, is a great example of a game that feels great on the Wiimote.

Originally Posted by Sean

Spider-man 3: I said it was a harsh example, but I didn't really mean to cherry pick it. There's just not much else in the cross-platform pickings.

There will be few examples of great Wii cross-platform games for now. Godfather and Tiger Woods Wii show games that can pull it off when the developer puts some effort into the port.

[Cor]

Excitetruck was awful. Motorstorm is better in nearly every single way. I hated the controls in that game too. The Wii remote doesn't feel anywhere as precise as a controller or a racing wheel. Imagine playing a Burnout on the Wii and crashing into traffic because the remote didn't respond the way you wanted it to. Eurgh.

[Sean]

Golf games are definitely great examples of a game the Wiimote adds immersion to. Tennis as well.

Baseball I'm kind of torn on... it works great for the "simplistic" Wii Sports version, but... How well will it work with a more complex baseball game where you're controlling your runners and fielders and all that? It might be left to more simplistic party stuff for that sport.

Like with football and Madden... it was really fun at first, but once the newness wore off it was basically annoying and started to detract from it.

Back on racing - even with arcade racers I'd much rather use an X360 controller or even a racing wheel. Wheels are just flat out more fun to play with period for me.

Also there's an issue of having enough buttons. Like on Need For Speed Underground 2? It works perfect with my X360 controller hooked up to my PC... but the Wiimote would just suck for it (for me anyways). And turning and all that shit with the Wiimote just seems seriously awkward in comparison. I think you might be alone on enjoying it more than a controller for that genre.

[Sean]

One more small note - Ace Combat is of the "Flight Action" genre, IE the Arcade experience of Flying games and most definitely not a sim in any way.

Flight Sims are horribly boring and awful games, for me at least.

(Yes, Flight Action is an official genre).

[RiskyChris]

Originally Posted by Sean

One more small note - Ace Combat is of the "Flight Action" genre, IE the Arcade experience of Flying games and most definitely not a sim in any way.

Flight Sims are horribly boring and awful games, for me at least.

(Yes, Flight Action is an official genre).

Oh and what a wonderful genre!

I'm willing to cede on the racing/flight front because it's shaky at best. I'm not yet convinced either way.

I don't particularly like excite truck, but there's a lot of people who can play it well, so I'm sure with finer control tuning it could turn into a great franchise.

[Sean]

I'm sure it could turn into a great franchise - my point was: what is there with the Wii that could make those genres *better*.

Really, what can you do with the Wiimote to enhance or change the experience of driving or flying?

There's tons of potential in other genres, but what potential is there in these genres? In the end for sims, arcades, or otherwise in this genre, you just do not get better than Wheels or Joysticks for the way you control the game.

You'd have to really go out of your way to stretch it like some kind of absurd racing game with Okami elements. And in that it'd probably be something like using the Nunchuck stick to steer and the Wiimote to draw.

That would have to be designed ridiculously well to not flop and it'd likely be a one time thing.

That also kind of turns it into something that's not really a racing game.

[chaos]

I think the controls actually hamper the Wii at points. Playing DBZ ont he Wii made me want to murder japanese people who thought that was fun. Good game, horrible an completely non-intuitive control scheme. I hear once you spend the time to learn it it becomes great, I'll never know.

Racing games on the Wii, no thanks. Burnout: Paradise will be a 360 title for me. Not even sure if it's coming on the Wii, but if it did I'd still go for the 360.

Really, other than Wii Sports, we have seen very little from the Wiimote as of right now. All we have are these promises of future awesomeness, and it's annoying because they aren't putting anything worth a shit out right now. Basically every game I have that's cross platform is gay because of the Wiimote, not because of the Wii itself. Even Zelda, I prefered the GC controls, maybe I'm just old fashioned.