ToV -> VT -> Time

Neric · 08-26-2003, 01:37 AM

Many of us are quite disappointed with the high burnout-effect in Plane of Time. I am wondering why this is the case, but it is not so hard to come up with an explanation.

I think ToV was best since you had this mixture of clearing yard trash, moving, getting to a boss and so on. You had to get the mobs and not vice versa. Moving around in this huge dungeon was fun. For this reason I liked ToV more once they removed the safe spot although the change to Vulak was of course "suboptimal".

In VT you had to move also, but everything kinda looked the same so the boredom factor was much higher. Still the combination of clearing yard trash and fighting boss mobs meant some change at least. The problem with the zone was the dull corridor design and the time it took to advance because all stuff had way too many hitpoints.

Plane of Time is the definition of boredom for me since there is no diversity anymore. You either kill trash for 3 hours or you sit in a room for the rest of the day doing gods. This room can be compared to the big one in the middle of PoM and honestly, nobody would like to sit in that room for the rest of his EQ life.

Basically the whole PoT-design is flawed as PoT A is simply way too huge for a zone where absolutely NOTHING happens while PoT B is simply too small and too boring.

I guess it could have been a tad better if the PoT A mobs would have been the 'trials', all tied to their little islands by memblur/warpback.

PoT B should have been designed like Tower of Solusek Ro. Every god should have been in an area with a teleporter and yard trash to clear up. This brings me to my last remark. Tower of Solusek Ro is a zone with great potential that got totally devaluated due to unimaginative and oversimiplified loot tables.

ToV has been massively changed, VT has been changed (to a minor degree at least) so lets hope Time gets changed also!

Silva · 08-26-2003, 01:43 AM

Yea, well, alot of people probably thought it would be a good idea to have all the gods together so you're not clearing, boss, clearing, boss.

Probably sounded like a good idea at the time.

Kodylan · 08-26-2003, 02:02 AM

It's a great idea and works very well aside from the fact you have to do tier 1 every day. Other than that, the plane of time beats the hell out of any past raid zone ever.

Quote:

PoT B should have been designed like Tower of Solusek Ro. Every god should have been in an area with a teleporter and yard trash to clear up. This brings me to my last remark. Tower of Solusek Ro is a zone with great potential that got totally devaluated due to unimaginative and oversimiplified loot tables.

I like the concept of time the way it is now, it's basically the same thing as what you describe, you just get all the trash out of the way in a large chunk instead of between mobs. Getting to the 'meat' of the zone and not having to go back to the side-dish between bites is pretty damn nice.

Neric · 08-26-2003, 02:41 AM

Compare it to eating....you don't sort your food, you like the mix don't ya?

Iannis · 08-26-2003, 05:02 AM

I'd think that the burnout could be more easily attributed to an aging, more cynical playerbase combined with a frequently buggy game who's concept hasn't grown in over 3 years, and whose lack of creative implementation has destroyed what little (or large, depending!) immersiveness the game at one point held.

An open ended game seemingly requires either practically infinite and diverse content or open ended gaming objectives in order to remain entertaining over a long period of time.

It seems the slow trend has been from: Everquest -- You're in our world now. to Everquest: Time to Catch up on the Will and Grace reruns while you grind xp and/or raid.

For all the faults of pvp (and there are many), it offers a different gaming experience each time out and a variety hard to emulate ,though not impossible, in a pve format. Eq was a damn good game. Then a pretty good game. Then a waste of time. Then a really crappy game. Then i quit, and I dunno where it's gone from there.. but judging by this and other boards...

I think it had less to do with the xpacs. If you look at them, each really are a refinement of the origional concept. Naggy / Vox taken to their endpoints. But given the limitations of their systems, manhours, and their whorish capitalist pigdog wearing a tophat desires to make the most profit off the least effort the result isn't all that suprising or unexpected.

Resturants generally only last 2-3 years. And they sell FOOD. GG Sony, even if their shit is rotten now.

And stuff

tanuvyen · 08-26-2003, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Neric
Compare it to eating....you don't sort your food, you like the mix don't ya?

i think you described it better then you realize

some people dont like to mix their food just like some would rather have the big fight, clear trash, big fight, clear trash thing.

but with that aside....

its not just that PoT is worse then ToV, its that (as somebody mentioned above i think) that people who are in PoT have been playing eq for a long ass time so they are just getting tired of it. their enthusiasm and ambitions just arent what they were years ago when they were first raiding ToV. imo its mostly due to age. people are gettin tired just cuz they have been playing so long, maybe the zone is worse compared to others contributed to people burning out but i think its mostly due to people getting bored with the concept of eq all together.

kasey · 08-26-2003, 07:24 AM

72 people raids were the biggest mistake ever,they are too big.Too painful to set up.With raids and flagging and 85% rules raiding became sooo tedious soo much WORK and soo slow.

40people raids are much easier to handle,and you know the people better.Everything would go smoother and faster,problem is sony would need to add way more content and they are soo lazy.

Zahrdahl · 08-26-2003, 07:49 AM

It's not like you HAVE to bring 72 people to raid though just because that's the limit... Personally I prefer PoTime over most other zones in the game. It's the only place I'm having fun atm.

Brodda Thep · 08-26-2003, 08:41 AM

I think the boss fights in PoTime are by far the best thought out to date. There are a few exceptions here and there, but if you compare it to other expansion's top zones they are good.

The whole setup just seems a tad too artificial for my liking though. However, I still enjoy the zone.

Nakilos · 08-26-2003, 08:54 AM

I would agree Time bosses are more fun overall than previous end game zones. Each one has a fairly unique set up, unlike VT which was basically whether or not the boss gravity fluxed or not was the distinguishing factor. The only thing that bothers me about Time bosses is ch rot still is the way to win. The other parts of fights are good though. I also am glad to not have to wade through hours of trash mobs for no other purpose than getting a meager amount of raid exp. In VT wading through trash post blind wasn't a challenge at all, took forever and was nothing more than an annoyance, and even with blind was nothing more than an annoyance. In ToV same thing, didn't matter how many drakes you killed it just resulted in more time wasted between fights. The Time limits are what make Time work really, considering the lack of trash mobs to clear is offset by this. I would say the only change Time really needs is removing cumulative timers of tiers, and just using the base timer per tier all the time. The 72 limit was one of the only intelligent things about Time also, and I hope this is implemented in all PoP encounters from Grummus to Rathe. If anything it should have been there from day 1.

Comparatively though itemization is worse in Time than any other zone. I say comparitively because while the stats on items are signficantly better than in VT/ToV (obviously), the desireability factor is diminished. Not much "wow this is a sweet whatever" like there was before. Too many tradeoffs in resists/focus effects/vengeance for melee for new mods which many have debateable use, and too much favor towards hybrids vs casters in the department of intelligent focus effect itemization.

kasey · 08-26-2003, 08:57 AM

Quote:

that bothers me about Time bosses is ch rot still is the way to win

not true, i dont want to say more so others can still have fun with the zone without spoilers.

Nakilos · 08-26-2003, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Many of us are quite disappointed with the high burnout-effect in Plane of Time. I am wondering why this is the case, but it is not so hard to come up with an explanation.

Well for one thing, I think the burnout would be WAY higher if Time was consistantly 2 hours of clearing bullshit spawns for no benefit. The reason people are already bored with Time is beating gods with 60+ isn't satisfying. The overwhelming feeling of lack of importance is what makes Time pretty stupid. The high healing requirements make Time stupid. That is why I say the problem with the zone is ch rot is still the win. Add all that to stupid itemization, it can feel fairly tedious to be farming loot which many are just hoping gets upgraded.

I don't know how many can remember farming Vulak for the 30th time, but I do. Same with farming Aten Ha Ra ad nauseum. After content is cleared, by kill 5-6, its pretty fucking boring no matter what you do. If anything things like bullshit clearing of spawns compounds the annoyance, and at least Time doesn't have bullshit spawn clearing, or rather to a much lesser extent. Tier 1 can be done in 30 minutes after doing it a lot so it is not even close to as irritating as clearing through Vex Thal was.

As a zone, I think Time is significantly better than any other end game zone. The resources required and the lack luster rewards are what makes Time not fun. The only saving grace is the "uniqueness" of encounters, and I would still use the term loosely.

rdb479 · 08-26-2003, 11:00 AM

Neither tov nor Vex Thal required you to go back through the entire expansion and kill every single boss to get your recruits to the level of play you were currently at like PoP. Vex Thal key required a mini raid for 3 floor ssra piece and emperor raid level. Everything else was a solo or group mission. Ntov required nothing but the level of the character to be high enough to entor ntov. PoP requires you to kill every single mob in the entire expansion to get as little as 1 new person to PoTime. That to me is the reason there is such a huge turn around today.

Silva · 08-26-2003, 11:13 AM

Yes, PLEASE LORD, give us huge time sinks to get into end game content instead of a weekend of somewhat exciting raids.

Kodylan · 08-26-2003, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Neither tov nor Vex Thal required you to go back through the entire expansion and kill every single boss to get your recruits to the level of play you were currently at like PoP. Vex Thal key required a mini raid for 3 floor ssra piece and emperor raid level.

Neither does the Plane of Time now...it takes about a day if you're fast, two if you mess around on rathe.

08-26-2003, 01:37 AM	#1 (permalink)
Neric <insert funny comment here> Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,934 -2 Internets	ToV -> VT -> Time Many of us are quite disappointed with the high burnout-effect in Plane of Time. I am wondering why this is the case, but it is not so hard to come up with an explanation. I think ToV was best since you had this mixture of clearing yard trash, moving, getting to a boss and so on. You had to get the mobs and not vice versa. Moving around in this huge dungeon was fun. For this reason I liked ToV more once they removed the safe spot although the change to Vulak was of course "suboptimal". In VT you had to move also, but everything kinda looked the same so the boredom factor was much higher. Still the combination of clearing yard trash and fighting boss mobs meant some change at least. The problem with the zone was the dull corridor design and the time it took to advance because all stuff had way too many hitpoints. Plane of Time is the definition of boredom for me since there is no diversity anymore. You either kill trash for 3 hours or you sit in a room for the rest of the day doing gods. This room can be compared to the big one in the middle of PoM and honestly, nobody would like to sit in that room for the rest of his EQ life. Basically the whole PoT-design is flawed as PoT A is simply way too huge for a zone where absolutely NOTHING happens while PoT B is simply too small and too boring. I guess it could have been a tad better if the PoT A mobs would have been the 'trials', all tied to their little islands by memblur/warpback. PoT B should have been designed like Tower of Solusek Ro. Every god should have been in an area with a teleporter and yard trash to clear up. This brings me to my last remark. Tower of Solusek Ro is a zone with great potential that got totally devaluated due to unimaginative and oversimiplified loot tables. ToV has been massively changed, VT has been changed (to a minor degree at least) so lets hope Time gets changed also!

08-26-2003, 07:49 AM	#8 (permalink)
Zahrdahl Deceiver Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 110 -1 Internets	It's not like you HAVE to bring 72 people to raid though just because that's the limit... Personally I prefer PoTime over most other zones in the game. It's the only place I'm having fun atm. __________________ Harbinger Peste Noire - Dirge, Runnyeye Pirate Vond Inisis - Swashbuckler, Runnyeye

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08-26-2003, 01:43 AM	#2 (permalink)
Silva Fuck off Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 388 +0 Internets	Yea, well, alot of people probably thought it would be a good idea to have all the gods together so you're not clearing, boss, clearing, boss. Probably sounded like a good idea at the time.

08-26-2003, 02:41 AM	#4 (permalink)
Neric <insert funny comment here> Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,934 -2 Internets	Compare it to eating....you don't sort your food, you like the mix don't ya?

08-26-2003, 05:02 AM	#5 (permalink)
Iannis Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Butt Hugging Moose Jockey Posts: 4,968 -1 Internets	I'd think that the burnout could be more easily attributed to an aging, more cynical playerbase combined with a frequently buggy game who's concept hasn't grown in over 3 years, and whose lack of creative implementation has destroyed what little (or large, depending!) immersiveness the game at one point held. An open ended game seemingly requires either practically infinite and diverse content or open ended gaming objectives in order to remain entertaining over a long period of time. It seems the slow trend has been from: Everquest -- You're in our world now. to Everquest: Time to Catch up on the Will and Grace reruns while you grind xp and/or raid. For all the faults of pvp (and there are many), it offers a different gaming experience each time out and a variety hard to emulate ,though not impossible, in a pve format. Eq was a damn good game. Then a pretty good game. Then a waste of time. Then a really crappy game. Then i quit, and I dunno where it's gone from there.. but judging by this and other boards... I think it had less to do with the xpacs. If you look at them, each really are a refinement of the origional concept. Naggy / Vox taken to their endpoints. But given the limitations of their systems, manhours, and their whorish capitalist pigdog wearing a tophat desires to make the most profit off the least effort the result isn't all that suprising or unexpected. Resturants generally only last 2-3 years. And they sell FOOD. GG Sony, even if their shit is rotten now. And stuff

08-26-2003, 07:24 AM	#7 (permalink)
kasey When my negative Internets reach 300 i will gain a golden glow and be restricted to the rickshaw. Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: wandering around Posts: 1,510 -27 Internets	72 people raids were the biggest mistake ever,they are too big.Too painful to set up.With raids and flagging and 85% rules raiding became sooo tedious soo much WORK and soo slow. 40people raids are much easier to handle,and you know the people better.Everything would go smoother and faster,problem is sony would need to add way more content and they are soo lazy.

08-26-2003, 08:41 AM	#9 (permalink)
Brodda Thep Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 370 -1 Internets	I think the boss fights in PoTime are by far the best thought out to date. There are a few exceptions here and there, but if you compare it to other expansion's top zones they are good. The whole setup just seems a tad too artificial for my liking though. However, I still enjoy the zone.

08-26-2003, 08:54 AM	#10 (permalink)
Nakilos Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,591 +0 Internets	I would agree Time bosses are more fun overall than previous end game zones. Each one has a fairly unique set up, unlike VT which was basically whether or not the boss gravity fluxed or not was the distinguishing factor. The only thing that bothers me about Time bosses is ch rot still is the way to win. The other parts of fights are good though. I also am glad to not have to wade through hours of trash mobs for no other purpose than getting a meager amount of raid exp. In VT wading through trash post blind wasn't a challenge at all, took forever and was nothing more than an annoyance, and even with blind was nothing more than an annoyance. In ToV same thing, didn't matter how many drakes you killed it just resulted in more time wasted between fights. The Time limits are what make Time work really, considering the lack of trash mobs to clear is offset by this. I would say the only change Time really needs is removing cumulative timers of tiers, and just using the base timer per tier all the time. The 72 limit was one of the only intelligent things about Time also, and I hope this is implemented in all PoP encounters from Grummus to Rathe. If anything it should have been there from day 1. Comparatively though itemization is worse in Time than any other zone. I say comparitively because while the stats on items are signficantly better than in VT/ToV (obviously), the desireability factor is diminished. Not much "wow this is a sweet whatever" like there was before. Too many tradeoffs in resists/focus effects/vengeance for melee for new mods which many have debateable use, and too much favor towards hybrids vs casters in the department of intelligent focus effect itemization.

08-26-2003, 11:00 AM	#13 (permalink)
rdb479 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 12 +0 Internets	Neither tov nor Vex Thal required you to go back through the entire expansion and kill every single boss to get your recruits to the level of play you were currently at like PoP. Vex Thal key required a mini raid for 3 floor ssra piece and emperor raid level. Everything else was a solo or group mission. Ntov required nothing but the level of the character to be high enough to entor ntov. PoP requires you to kill every single mob in the entire expansion to get as little as 1 new person to PoTime. That to me is the reason there is such a huge turn around today.

08-26-2003, 11:13 AM	#14 (permalink)
Silva Fuck off Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 388 +0 Internets	Yes, PLEASE LORD, give us huge time sinks to get into end game content instead of a weekend of somewhat exciting raids.