A Way to make developers listen

[GaliemVaelant]

This is my second thread here, and I just posted my first yesterday, so I'll try not to open up any more discussions for awhile. There's just one other thing that has been on my mind for awhile that I would like to put on the table.

I learned when I was in the Army that the only thing the "upper", "important", or "decision making" people really pay any attention to is paper.

What I mean is, in the Army, if you use the bathroom, you better have documented toilet paper to prove it, because you never know when it will be needed.

The same applied anywhere, with slight variations. In order to get important people to listen, you need an important voice. Sometimes it's in the form of documents, sometimes it's in the form of money.

The best voice for any situation is a collective one, however. A panel of experts in whatever field will always have more pull than a group of people shouting.

My idea is one that have hesitated bringing up due to the fact that this thread could as easily end up in the rickshaw as it can stay at the top of the board for a month... The difference, I guess is up to y'all.

While I sit back, studying the scene, and watching the MMO industry and community advance and grow into a truly revolutionary new media, I see an element that is rarely present in any industry.

The consumers have grown to at or very near the same level of content design and implementation expertise as the actual developers.

What I would LOVE to see, though I am not certain whether I could actually start, is an official community of gamers put together with the specific goal of debating key issues regarding the development of MMOs.

The difference between my idea and a message board such as this is that every debate would be documented and summarized, with all conclusions noted. The community would have a charter, and mission statement, just as a business would. The last difference would be one of professional recognition. The idea would be for it to become the CompTIA of MMOs.

To see what I mean, browse through these forums with this thought in mind: If this community collectively designed an MMO thoughtfully, would it not be the absolute best thing the industry would ever see? Would standards still being defined not be set and raised? Would a truly noteworthy contribution to the field of MMO design not be made?

The specifics of this idea could probably not be set by myself, as it would take a team effort. For example, how would such a community achieve professional recognition on an industry wide level? At what point is the community recognized as not only another forum, but as a truly serious and dedicated panel of experts on the market?

Well, here's where I have maybe more balls than I should, and press the submit button. Again, I apologize for my being longwinded.

Edit: At a sometimes, my grammar is suck.

[Wrathcaster]

Very cool idea, I like the premise of players designing their own game tailored for them.

There are some problems that you'd have to work around, some that I can't think of but some I do know now.

One such problem: People having different ideas about the same game, trying to shape it into something that it really wasn't meant to be. Say you're designing a PVE game, and some tard keeps introducing PVP-centric features, then you'd have a problem. Or people introducing ideas that clash with the conceptual gameworld- People wanting guns, spaceships, etc, to be implemented in high fantasy games. This kind of conflict arises from the posters' egoes(sp???) and can't really be stopped by just telling people to stop.

The solution I have to this problem is, designate your own Vision for the game, similar to what Verant did with EQ (not as flawed mind you). Post beforehand WHAT kind of game you want, or have many semi-qualified people agree on the game, ie massively PVP, massively PVP and PVE, a high tech space MMOG, fantasy game. I think you'd want to determine some basic staples about the game before you started designing it, that way you'd know which direction to head, instead of just having a big pool of conflicting ideas.

I think one way to gain professional acceptance and recognition would be to use already established figures in MMO gaming to sponsor your project. Maybe grab developers who want to volunteer for the fun of helping to form a game, or people such as Tigole and Furor to lend ideas here and there, hell, maybe you could even grab thott for some leet, leet graphs . Thing is, without some sort of guarantee of quality, or show of capability at creating workable ideas, you'd be hard pressed to attract gaming companies that believe what you're doing is feasible and will be reliable.

[DorianBrytestar]

Nice idea, I think impossible to implement...

Who decides who is an expert?
We have seen time and time again that people do not agree what is best.
Players scream for something, we beg for something, and when it is in place, people scream that it is not what they wanted and how dare someone listen to the "whiners".

I agree that it would be a nice thing to have, but unsure of how you would decide who would be an expert.

[GaliemVaelant]

The community wouldn't be formed originally though to create a game, though I believe that there would be incredible potential toward that end, should that day come.

The main goal would be simply to create an "Official Voice". It would be a consortium of players lending their minds and ideas toward the debate of key issues in MMO design.

The resource it would offer to development teams would be simply a well recognized source of information on the current feel and shape of the MMO community.

Instead of going to the FOH boards, the Kazam's boards, the Afterlife Boards, the TR boards, the EQ boards, the Lucy boards, the EQTraders boards, the SW:G boards, and so on and so on, developers could hear the voice of the entire MMO industry in one place.

The topic brought up would have to be organized. It couldn't be a simply message board with anyone starting any thread. There would have to be designated topics for set periods of time to be debated heavily, yet professionally.

The main hurdle between conception and implementation of a community would be weeding out the flamers, leet dewds, etc from those who seriously care about the MMO industry.

This idea is somewhere between what already exists, and what could exist. It's more innovation than invention, but it would take the MMO community to the next level.

It's a place where gamers could say that we, as a community, will never like such-and-such in a game, and that thing will always kill a game's chances of success, as well as say we would like such-and-such in game, and we'd all play it if it were to be.

It would be sort of a melding of minds, a centralizing and standard defining resource... The main purpose would be to accelerate the direction and growth of the MMO industry and genre. Instead of a company putting something in a game as an experiment, risking many many dollars, they could ask a central community what they though, and get an honest, professional quality analysis representing the entirety of the MMO community in the best way humanly possible.

Edit: Added this to address the first two replies with things I've thought of already, but am about to bugger off and let y'all disect this animal.

The best way I can think of to get qualified serious input into that community would be to look at the current communities. It wouldn't be a sign up and post type place, but rather a "We see you have a good head on your shoulders, come join us by invitation" type place.

It would be impossible to say that one thing is the absolute best solution in any topic, because there are different opinions and styles of play. What would be possible is to give a range of ideas on a set topic, and say it could work as long as 1), 2) sort of thing. We could show the industry what gamers will never love, as well as what we'd go head over heels for.

[DorianBrytestar]

Sounds kinda communist tho.

One group of people that is deciding what is and what is not good for the entire MMO world?

We could show the industry what gamers will never love, as well as what we'd go head over heels for.

You keep saying that line about things gamers will never love. There are a lot of people out there that have not heard of X-Com, I loved that game! I would hate to think about a small group of people that decided that no one would ever like this game so the developers decided not to make it.

While I think that soliciting opinions about something it worthwhile, the line of saying what gamers will or will not ever like is a bit strong and unrealistic.

Instead of a company putting something in a game as an experiment, risking many many dollars, they could ask a central community what they though, and get an honest, professional quality analysis representing the entirety of the MMO community in the best way humanly possible.

I hate to break it to you, but as a whole, the MMO community are not honest, professional, quality minded people. So even if you do find people like that to help, that would not be the cross section of the MMO world that would accurately reflect the MMO as a community.

How would you create a board or entity that would allow for the number crunching of the Thotts as well as the childish antics of the SZers?

[keltaraz]

"Who decides who is an expert?"

Just for clarification: An expert (in many areas of society including courts) is someone that has 5+ years direct experience in a particular field/subject.

I like some of the ideas the original poster has written.

[GaliemVaelant]

I hate to break it to you, but as a whole, the MMO community are not honest, professional, quality minded people. So even if you do find people like that to help, that would not be the cross section of the MMO world that would accurately reflect the MMO as a community.

This is true, and something I had not thought of... There are alot of such details around this idea that make me unsure whether it is altogether a good idea or not.

As far as the communist comment, I had not intended that, but I see your point there as well. It would be unfair to have one group representing so many people, unless every viewpoint was represented... I was thinking of it more like a congress of gamers, with the cream of the crop from each community.

However, even the l33t dewds and flamers have their places and roles in the community, and that would be difficult to represent while still maintaining a professional bearing.

These things leave me with two questions in mind:

1) Is there a way to circumvent or solve these problems that would arise in accurately reflecting a cross section of the MMO community?

2) If not, I still believe the core of the idea has merit. Discussing the finer points of MMO design with well rounded minds in an environment safe from flames and degredation of content would be an invaluable thinktank. How could this be used in a non commercial, academic-like professional way constructively without a waste of effort?

The thing I would like to avoid is the aristocratic reminiscent, or elitist type view of and environment within such a community that could occur if steps are not taken to prevent it. This community would be dedicated to the fun and good of the MMO community as a whole, but would have to represent it fairly and completely, or it would fail in its mission.

Edit:

I should also say that the format of the information coming out of the community would not be such a thing as "This is the single most effective", or "This is the single best".

Rather, it would go along the lines of "This issue could be solved a number of ways, such as", and then go into the things each solution to the given issue has in common.

For example, using the most obvious and widely accepted facts at the top tier of game conception, one could state:

1) Nobody wants to be griefed.

Granted, there may be one guy out there who loves logging into a game simply to be griefed and harrassed, but he would represent such an overwhelming minority that a generalization could be made on the majority's behalf in this instance. This is something gamers will always hate.

2) When playing a game, everyone wants to progress in some way.

This, again, will pretty much always be true. This is something gamers will always love.

The information coming out of the community would be much more in depth, and would delve much deeper into the design of MMOs, but would coninue along the same lines, coming up with creative solutions to issues and setting standards which represent the MMO community well.

[A Lizard]

Goodluck keeping the members of the site honest, if it became a respectable community. Free merchandise, beta accounts, demonstration invites, drugs, sex, rock & roll.

[Morb]

Well, theoretically couldn't you just have a message board where anyone can post their thoughts about anything, and have unbiased (if there is such a thing) moderators pull out topics that people seem to discuss often and run polls and such about them, and post the results on some records page?

phpBB with some slight modifications would probably work well.

[Mkopec1]

Make Devs listen?

Only way I see is to kidnap their kids and wife and make demands.

If they are geeks without a wfe and kids, take them, tie them up and beat them with the nerf stick they have been beating us with for years, untill submission.

[Maegril]

Originally posted by GaliemVaelant
As far as the communist comment, I had not intended that, but I see your point there as well. It would be unfair to have one group representing so many people, unless every viewpoint was represented... I was thinking of it more like a congress of gamers, with the cream of the crop from each community.

It's impossible to fairly represent every viewpoint. Everyone who's ever voiced an online opinion about MMOG design is a small subset of the players. The closest you get are the polls like those that SOE occasionally runs on EQ. And look hard and listen to the lessons they teach:

When asked whether folks wanted new content or to fix old problems, most of the vocal people said "Fix old problems." After all, it was reprehensible that problems in the game had been left in so long.

Once they began doing so, the screams of "Who cares about fucking spelling mistakes and doors on backwards, I meant (pet problem X)!!!" began. Thoughts, ideas, and concepts mean different things to different people. Putting the people in charge is almost always disastrous. Pure representation is a foul thing; there's a reason the US govt. is structured like it is. The flip side, of course, is that if a certain group gets into power, their agenda drives the process. That can be corrupted pretty badly in a system with multiple (theoretical) self-regulation processes (i.e. the US Govt again). It can be corrupted immensely in a system without such self regulation. (What's proposed here.)

1) Is there a way to circumvent or solve these problems that would arise in accurately reflecting a cross section of the MMO community?

No. See above.

2) If not, I still believe the core of the idea has merit. Discussing the finer points of MMO design with well rounded minds in an environment safe from flames and degredation of content would be an invaluable thinktank. How could this be used in a non commercial, academic-like professional way constructively without a waste of effort?

The best academic example to bring to bear would be one of refereed journals, where contributions are refereed by experts on a particular field. Unfortunately, in academic journals, expertise is far easier to qualify, as you have an objective truth against which to judge a person's contribution.

In the realm of social interactions (which is, effectively, what's being discussed) it's a much thornier situation. Power structures, subcultures and the like run rampant. In all honesty, the more decentralized method used now is probably better, because it at least affords everyone the opportunity to voice their opinion. Ultimately the effect the opinion has is left to whether or not someone in power sees it and resonates with it. This is, assumably, how Tigole ended up working for Blizzard, for example.

The thing I would like to avoid is the aristocratic reminiscent, or elitist type view of and environment within such a community that could occur if steps are not taken to prevent it. This community would be dedicated to the fun and good of the MMO community as a whole, but would have to represent it fairly and completely, or it would fail in its mission.

Define "good of the MMO community as a whole" operationally, please. Remember when such phrases are used in reality they are widely not agreed upon, and generally have to be propped up by particular morality or belief systems (e.g. Natural Law). The very concept of an aristocratic system is misplaced. This isn't a society; you're not born into MMOGs, unable to leave at will. It's far more a democracy than most folks realize. You don't like the current (virtual) socio-politic climate? Tell the people in charge by withdrawing your support (money).

1) Nobody wants to be griefed.

...

2) When playing a game, everyone wants to progress in some way.

Ah.. so what you want to dictate are the underlying important precepts of the social game design. There's tons of discussion out there about such things. They were once hosted on the comp.game.development.* heirarchy on usenet, but the S/N ratio got pretty abysmal after a while. There is a mud dev mailing list which is more or less the currently appropriate place for much fo these discussions. And I think there are a couple of industry only, insider (if you will) mailing lists for such discussions as well.

The thing is, what the players say is, in many ways, moot. Players will say they want one thing, when in reality they want something different, or that thing and something else, or... most such discussions end up going back to things like the Bartle test, and how to design to accomodate as wide a swath as possible for all the different motivation types. The main problem with a player feedback committee is the inability of most players to look beyond their immediate experience. I could see such things leading to wide swings in game design, sure, but it would all be reactionary for the most part, as the designers screwed up Item B in response to fixing Item A, which was screwed up in response to fixing Item Z, ad nauseum.

There just aren't a lot of people out there who can divorce what they want from a game from what's good for the game/community at large. And that would be the most basic fundamental prerequisite for the formation of such a community.

[GaliemVaelant]

I don't really want the community to dictate much, just summarize what the players are saying.

I can see though that it could be incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to set up what I have in mind.

For reasons of ethics, and timing, I really don't want the community to be formed to design a game, however, it seems that may be easier to do than what I've had in mind.

Afterall, there is an abundance of coders, artists, and individuals of varying expertise out there who would jump at the opportunity to develop a game in such a way.

I even know the path to getting one published and distributed... I am aware of several possible ways to do that, actually, but the question now is which would help the community more?

Either way, I've been considering this for awhile. Considering how young the MMO industry is, this is probably the easiest time ever to do so. While the industry and community progresses, it will undoubtedly become increasingly complex.

Either way, this is the sort of thing that would take alot of time. Even if a game were to be developed, the community proposed would have to go through a period of intense research and debate in order to outline a clear plan, or vision for the game.

Then the specifics could be filled in, like setting, story, etc... Then the coding will become the spotlight. We would know what the game engine would have to be able to accomplish from the start, as well as what direction it would need to grow.

I believe I can organize such a thing, but only if the MMO community were to support the idea.

If/ When this comes to be (and I'll have more news soon), the initial gathering of the community would take place among message boards and various communities, such as this. Certain figures would have an open invitation from the get-go, which goes without saying (Furor, Tigole, etc)...

In the meantime, I guess I'll have to see what the community thinks of both variations of the idea -- The standard defining variation, as well as the game development variation. I'll also have to see how much support the community would have for such a thing.

Either way, the important and formost thing that should be emphasized is that this would be a community effort. This would not be a company, an individual, or even a single team. This would be the joining of many different minds from a broad spectrum of sources coming together to do something huge as a community.

All in all, I don't think, but KNOW this is possible. I also don't think, but KNOW it would be valuable to the industry and community if created and implemented correctly.

Thank y'all for your input on this idea. You've analyzed it and pointed out its greater weaknesses to me, which is exactly what I hoped for. After all, any idea a person has sounds great to them... It's what others think that detemines whether it has any merit or not.

Only way to see if there's a big difference between the idea's form on paper and in reality would probably be to do it. I'll keep checking back here for input because there is nothing more valuable... Hell, that's the whole principle this idea is based on 8)

[Heales]

GaliemVaelant,

Read your PM.

[Warrik]

There is no way. Hate to break it to you...but the Dev's obey the almighty dollar. Your in THEIR world now.

[Wrathcaster]

I think the best way to make most of your ideas work is to start the forums with an intention to create a farm of ideas for differing types of games, and to use polls of user opinions + your own creative opinions to mold the game you want.

Rather than trying to host the entire spectrum of views, which you, obviously, cannot do, I propose you simply pick and choose, and make a project your own, or that of a group of people you select. That way you don't have to deal with people that are screaming at you, saying things like "You're being a dictator over the boards and the community!" or "Only your ideas/your friends ideas are getting approval!" Because the boards and the community will post ideas on topics you, or a group, specify, with numerous guidelines to go on, there will be no mistake that the project has an intended destination.

I think that you should focus on creating visions for each type of project you want to do, rather than trying to squeeze every idea you can into whatever type of game whatever community of people may or may not agree on.

Be objective. Get a list of things that you want to be definite about the game you propose to work with, or have people help you select these things through polls and such. Find members of communities similar to the game you propose, or at least find people helpful enough or from reliable sources enough to ensure you don't get meaningless shit post after meaningless shit post.

If you go into this thing with every single possibility open, I think you will breed in weakness. Complete freedom comes at a price, and I believe you should establish what you want to do or discuss and get people to help you do it.

This doesn't necessarily mean you must discuss one type of game all the time, and that all ideas must always be the ones that completely fit in with what you had in mind... sometimes some of the stuff that comes in from way out there can be great, but discretion is something you'll want to use.

To summarize all I've said, have an objective for each project you discuss, know what you want from it, give the community the information you need, and either poll people on what they think the best ideas are, or have a panel of qualified players decide.