Team PvP, good versus evil?

[Qeaux]

i always wondered why they did not make a pvp server that was a much more simple 2 teams, good versus evil. maybe its because i am person of extremes but the idea of a middle team, or neutral team, never appealed to me. what do ya'll think, would say...Sullon Zek have been better if there were no neut team from the start, and was just good versus evil? would it have been more balanced from the start with neut and good combined so that good would have not been at such a disadvantage?

[Fadaar]

evils always get too crowded

[Warrik]

EQ was not designed for PvP. A game has to have already built into its design PvP for classes/races to have balance.

As we see in Daoc, maintaining balance in team based PvP takes alot of work. Underpopulated realms is a major problem Mythic faces, and if I understand corrently, on SZ, they lovingly refer to the Evil Team as Team Easy.

[KorenskySZ]

people always chant "theres no class balance in pvp!"

what does that mean exactly? Should every class be able to kill every other class? Welcome to FPS games then, because its not possible to even get close to that when you have more than 1 class in a game. Should some classes be able to kill others, but weak against still others? Rock paper scissors if you will? EQ has been like this for a long, long time yet people still whine that it isnt. (enc, war, cleric is a great example of rock paper scissors... enc cant kill a war for beans, but owns cleric. Cleric can kill warrior anytime but cant touch enc. Enc can kill clr ez and the circle is complete...). Some people want "pure skill" to matter more than anything else (time invested in gearing up, etc)... ever tried a melee vs melee battle? Jousting skill is HUGE there.


Im simply not convinced. What is it you want? Have you "EQ isnt balanced for pvp" people ever actually tried it out for yourselves? The first thing people point to is manaburn, SK imp HT and Lifeburn...but chew on this. EQ is balanced VERY WELL for group v group and larger encounters. VERY well in fact. The only game that has come close in my eyes was Shadowbane, which suffered from lag issues so badly when more than 20-30 people were onscreen that I quit playing after my first major battle.

Ive played Zek servers and nothing but, and believe me ive done my share of whining over class balance, but in retrospect, EQ was and is a fine game for pvp. It is not CounterStrike nor Quake, but for what it was it was a success.

[Lumi]

Korensky is definately right, EQ has a nicely balanced pvp system in the form of a rock paper scissor format. For instance most melees clearly have an advantage over casters early on, then as you level up and they get more potent and less resistable spells, the casters begin to get an advantage over melee's and then they meet at 60+ to become balanced.

For instance I am a warrior, from 6-50 I pretty much destroyed all casters, even red cons but once wizards got lures and such I would find myself running from them sometimes until I hit 55 and got my stun kick then I gained my advantage back because lures didn't do enough damage fast enough before I could chop them down. But once they hit about 62 and have 2 strong lures, unless I can really close in on them and stop them from casting, I'm gonna have to haul ass or I'm dead for sure.

The only things that still need to be nerfed imo are instant gates and horses (you can cast a horse when snared, and paladin horse aa is instant cast), other then that PvP is pretty well balanced above any other MMORPG out there even ones geared solely for PvP.

[Qeaux]

ok let me try this again, what i am seeking is comments specifically about a team server with similar rules as sullon where instead of 3 teams there are 2, good and evil.

it seems like it would have been more balanced with neut and good merged to counter the evil teams dominance.

the reason i ask is because i played on sullon for a little while and i flat refuse to play on the evil team for mostly roleplaying reasons but i was having a helluva time deciding between the neuts and goods.

i just seems more reaslistic from a full-on teams vs team perspective to only have 2 teams. i mean all major wars only really have 2 sides, eventually everyone involved has to pick a side or risk agression from both.

since any type of alliance is impossible on sullon, and was especially early on since so many people refused to obey and slaughtered the allied team anyway...i am wondering if it would have made the all out competition aspect of the teams more fulfilling.

[ebob9]

I always thought EQ needed Faction PVP. Would go something like this...

You start out, and pick a faction to join. That could be any of the ingame factions, like Claws of Veeshan, Coalition of Tradefolk, etc.

Then, you could /con other players, and see if they scowled at you. If they scowled at you, then they could kill you.

I'm sure there would be a lot of details and scenarios that would need to be worked out, but it seems like it would be pretty fun to me.

-ebob9

[Iannis]

that's pretty much how warhammer sounds like they're going to handle PvP...

if someone notices you out there in the graveyard raising corpses some factions are going to get a bit pissed.

[ChewieTobbacca]

honestly speaking EQ had so many ways to do the pvp but the old good vs. evil stuff IMO would be too much like everything else out there.. rather different factions

yea yea roleplay considerations and shit are in there but hell wouldve been interesting if they could implement it based on factions like in velious dragons vs. giants and where taking out the enemy's guys would give bonuses to you or what not..

wouldve been great but who knows

[teauvian]

It would be cool if they worked out a system where say you saw someone killing dwarves in Great Divide and you whacked the person then you would get a sizeable +Coldain faction hit.

Or even better, Guild A is engaging Tormax, and Guild B comes and ends the party. I would imagine that the giants of Kael would be pretty happy.

In fact, the whole Dragons vs. Giants theme of Velious would have made for some good PvP possibilities. However, by the end, faction really didn't matter, ie a guild might kill AoW and NToV in the same night. It would have been much better if you had to stick with your faction the whole way. Or if perhaps you could hail a dragon in Skyshrine and it would be like "The dragon lords of North ToV will be coming out of their slumber tonight and we are dispatching a force to aid in their protection. However, the force will not be there until X hours. Protect these dragons and you get a reward." Conversely, a giant oculd be hailed and order a person to assassinate the dragons of NToV. Thus setting the stage for a massive battle. If the CoV guild wins, they get the reward from the dragons, if the Giant guild wins they get the loot from NToV.

[ChewieTobbacca]

yeah IMO velious was pretty cool because of this.. IMO it couldve been expanded a lot


imagine the ring war with two sides made up of players + their allies.. would be pretty interesting where strategy and skill could be put together

forcing you to stick in one faction would be pretty tight..

issues like training and stuff would be there of course but if a game was designed with this style of game stuff in mind it wouldn't be an issue

[Jimmee]

The reason is that the bad guys get the best pvp classes. They'd have exclusive access to Necromancer (arguably the best) and Shadowknight (one of the best.)

Good guys would get exclusive access to druids (fairly good) and paladins (pretty poor.)

They would both share shaman and wizard, so both sides would get access to arguably the best attrition pvp class and the best fast attack class. All other classes would be available to both teams.

So the bad guys have the best exclusive classes as well as all the others and they have access to more big races too.

When sullon zek came out the only real legitimate complaint the evil team had was that they lacked porting capabilities (no druids and only dark elf wizards.) But with PoP and the Nexus this doesn't really stand anymore.

So the evil team would get swamped once again and would take over.

And EQ pvp isn't balanced in a rock, paper, scissor way. In a fight with average gear a necro would destroy any class, even if the other player had better resists, the unresistable DoT's and lifetaps would chew through them.

[Tuldail]

Good guys would get exclusive access to druids (fairly good) and paladins (pretty poor.)

Paladins are pretty poor? Have you ever tried to kill a paladin in PvP? Paladins are one of the toughest classes to beat imo.

A. We get resist spells.
B. We can heal ourselves quite efficiently
C. We do fairly decent damage
D. Our buffs/self-buffs total over 1800 hp, around 90 ac, 3 mana regen, and 25% haste

Just because we can't kill other players rediculously fast like SK's don't mean we are a poor PvP class. We are meant to take a lickin and keep on tickin, and in PvP no one can do it better than a paladin.

[RuhiRZ]

Originally posted by Jimmee

And EQ pvp isn't balanced in a rock, paper, scissor way. In a fight with average gear a necro would destroy any class, even if the other player had better resists, the unresistable DoT's and lifetaps would chew through them.

LOL anyone who knows anything about PvP would not have any problem with necro dots... its quite simple, its called pumice, or cure disease potions ect...

[GaliemVaelant]

A two sided war would rock, as long as the developers paid attention to detail.

As it has been mentioned, it wouldn't work if one side had exclusive use of the most powerful class. It should be noted, however, that I'm not saying Necros are the most powerful class.

What the teams PvP server needs is a GM event designed to gather many many evils to SRo, and many many good guys to NRO. Then, they battle it out in Oasis.

THAT would be fun.

I agree the problem with EQ PvP is only that 1 on 1 PvP fighting is encouraged by the system. Very rarely do you see a large scale battle with a raid style force on both sides.

EQ needs a way to prevent 1 on 1 and encourage team vs team. The game is mostly PvE, but is designed to be played as a team, so that is the only way PvP will work perfectly.

Under the current system, I can't think of any way to do that though, unless Sony started allowing multiple pets to be summoned or charmed.