Rant: How Everquest is killing itself for me

[Szlia]

Well.. after realizing my post is too damn huge, I made a summary for you:

1) Mobs that behave differently and require fast reaction from the raid is fun.
2) Fights that have an uncertain outcome are fun.
3) The fight engine should be adjusted so all classes scale up to a certain cap (hard one or soft one) that could vary from an encounter to another or not.
4) The social impact of an anti-zerg code sounds manageable


1) One of the main problem I see is the fact that every single mob runs almost the same fight engine. SOE can give them odd abilities that are triggered randomly or triggered on a set timer, a bunch of spell they sometime cast in a specific context (Gate, Heals, Dispell), but that's about all. There is not much you have to react to in a fight in EQ. It would be nice to have mobs that change strats during the fight or that run away deeper and deeper in a dungeon, things like that.

It does not have to be overly complex, but anything that breaks the monotony of a fight is a good thing (well.. not ANYTHING but you get the idea... ).

2) Another issue is that with the increasing power of the mobs it's pretty rare that a fight is uncertain, and that is uncertainty that is fun, not wiping to a single tiny mistake or executing flawlessly a perfectly laid plan. And when I mean uncertainty, I do not mean the "if we get lucky with the rng and resist most of the AoE we will win" one, but rather the "damn! It's going downhill but we can get over it and succeed in the end if we stay focused and play well" one. Now I agree that designing encounters that provide this type of entertainment is certainly very difficult. How to be challenging but not unforgiving?

3) About anti-zerg design, a flaw of EQ is that not all classes have the same stacking issues in that regard. Melee are restricted by the physical space that allow them to hit the mob and DoT'ers are restricted by the number of free buff slots the mob has, while archers, nukers and pet owners know no limit.

Some months ago, we talked a lot about scalability, but only of one end of the problem: some classes core abilities scaled so badly it was no use for a raid to have more than one or two members of them. Today we see that there should be for all classes (or rather function) a limit in scalability. A limit that can be absolute (vs every single mobs) or relative (changing from a mob to another).

For example, I would guess that if every nuke would put a buff for a short duration on NPCs, it would dramatically limit the number of nukers that could be useful (you can bring more, but everyone would get more and more "could not take hold" messages). To not interfere with other spells like debuffs and DoTs, a new "Nuke Buff Window" could be added for the NPCs. It could even vary in size from an NPC to another (creating a parallel magic/melee resists/AC "Nuke buff slots"/"hit box size").

That's just one idea, others should be added and existing ones should be tuned (the "hit box size" issue was probably not considered when making 2 inches tall and fast moving raid class mobs).

4) There are also social effects to a strict anti-zerg code. After all some guild happen to zerg not because they suck, but because friends invite friends that bring friends in the guild resulting in too much people that show on raids. I guess they would have to split in multiple raid forces which could be problematic to handle (all the melee want to go kill the melee item dropping mobs while all the casters want to go slay the caster items dropping mobs - note that if it happens too much there are obviously core problems in the guild).

It will certainly be an advantage for future MMORPG to be able to think at this type of issue right from the start and I don’t think we can blame VI to not have foreseen such problems. I fear that many new game will still make the mistakes of their ancestors though :P

[Qalar-Drinal]

170+ open raid on Grummus today on Drinal server. I think only 7 people died total or something.

Pretty hillarious!

[Scorpvenom]

I'm just curious but does anyone care to support, or refute my previous two posts on this thread? I'm extremely bored. I need a good verbal debate.

[Szlia]

These Grummus kills are the result of the flag system that limits dramatically the content for the people that are not the members of raiding guilds or are not willing to spend an ungodly amount of time on poorly designed flagging quests. I mean... how many people across all servers made the PoStorm quest to reach PoTactics or even the PoDisease quest to reach CoD?

[Bukkake King of CT]

I think you should keep crying about a video game that causes you to get upset that not everyone has the time to invest that you do, nor wishes to go down the l337 path of FoH.

Get a grip dude. If its that bad for you, log off, delete everything, and find a new game

[Ritkhan]

EQ is on it's way out. I guess this is what we were talking about 1.5 years ago when it came to NTOV and mudflation. I have stopped playing EQ 8months ago, and even if i wanted to come back it would be impossible. Like Kreug said, getting level 65, a few hundred AA and a bunch of flags and keys would be ridiculous. Pre-Velious even with the level 60 cap, there was not much to an EQ character outside of level 60. But now it's insane what has been put into each character.

I also remember thinking how great it was when FoH, AL and LoS were competing on first kills and who could find new things before anyone else. But now it's like who cares? Before we trully wondered if Trakanon could be killed, or if NToV was possible, or if the 4th warder was doable. Now i have no doubt that any mob can be killed given enough zerg power. Not that FOH zergs, but the feeling of accomplishment is no longer there. EQ had many factors to why it was an enjoyable game, but as time goes on, i see less and less of those factors being prevalent.

EQ boards used to be flooded with new items, epic quest help, optimal gear questions, rants on 2 handers, dual wield questions. But now talking about the game itself does not seem to be part of the game. it's mostly about if the expansion is worth it, or how Verant fucked it up again, or how lag sucks and how the models look like crap. It's like reading a book. EQ is a book and you're pretty much done reading it. You know the story, you know how it's going to end. But you still look at the cover and pictures and keep play with the pages for some reason. Just put down the damn book and move on.

As much as i had fun in EQ and i always get an itch to play again because of reminiscing about the fun times, i know what i had fun playing 2 years ago is no longer there.

[Iannis]

realms of torment is coming out soon(i use that word relatively..like, this year. lol), might be worth buying and playing for a bit instead of paying 30 bucks for the privelege of making a frog twink, and dinky little features...you can take a whack at that if you're gettin' bored of EQ.
It has some really wierd ideas. PvP, skill degradation, PermaDeath(whoa, old MUD concept! eek.) if you want to put your balls on the line and try to kill a god...hehe. Ok, so that might not appeal to most people on these forums...

oh no, i'm morphing into a SB fanboi!!! KILL MEEEE

[doharg]

You are in a bit of a no win situation there Kreugen. You want to be the very best at EQ, but that's no more possible then being the very best tic-tac-toe player on Earth. You can't master that which has no depth. We could cross bread Mike Jordan and Steven Hawking and the result would be no better at EQ then Coco the monkey. Not that you care about my opinion, but I think you would be happier working on something with a little more depth to it.

[CarlieSolRo]

well IMO once EQ becomes boring for you, there is no making it back to the pre-boring state. If you are in a high end guild odds are that at least half the reason you still play is to kill stuff first and equip your character. Characters are so strong now that things become trivial too fast. They can't, or should i say won't, put worthwhile rewards on 1 group doable encounters. It comes down to maintaining your sanity and raiding with 45 and hoping that the next boss that quads for 2000 is even killable with that number, or bring 100 people and have a party.

In my opinion the addition of AA skills and especially the levels 61-65 are the cause of most of the problems. Think back to when 50 was max level.... There were dungeons that were easy once you knew them, but you could still die with some screw ups. Imagine if the entire game of EQ, all expansions were tuned for characters of Kunark strength. The choices of things to do would be immense. While i sort of like the idea of having AA points to sort of personalize your character they simply give too much power for what they take to obtain.

Basically my point is this. Back when the only uber mobs were Nagafen and Vox, the only ones killing them were the ones who had their act together and some semblence of 'skill'. Having a Cloak of Flames made your character better. At that time it was likely only one guild even had the item. Over a time you would have a group with vastly superior haste than the group that could only get FBSS's from Guk. Nowadays with effects and such capped this part of the game is almost gone. Sure there are focus effects and whatnot but add a few more people and they can make up for that. Doesn't matter if it takes 3 'normal' wizards to equal an elite wizard. Not that hard to get 3. It should be the ability of your guild and the items you gain from the increasingly tougher mobs that makes your character and your guild stronger, not a ton of free time and 500 AA points. However, SOE wants everyone to keep playing, so that equation isnt going to go away anytime soon.

On a side note, something neat would be boss AE's that get stronger the more people they come in contact with. For instance a lightning AE that sort of 'flags' you when it hits you. Let's say on first AE the boss records 40 'flags'. Next wave if it counts more than 40 or hits unflagged people it immediately fires off another AE that is 3 times as powerful. Poor example maybe but you get the idea.

And if you are bored, don't take a LOA if you intend to play again. Once you decide to come back the game seems twice as boring. You just need to know when it's over for you and leave it be.

[Exmonk]

CarlieSolRo that was a very good idea with a mob's ae checking to see how many people and gaining strength just gotta find a balance and it could work.

[Thunder]

I like the AE "flag" idea. Would, possibly, get the game back into the "skill of the player" world as opposed to just throwing numbers at something. Mob X is designed for Y amount of people which is the baseline for it. Raid engages and mob X immediately AE's and checks the raid force and adjusts its strength. Then you would have to figure out a way to factor out the "lookie-loos" that might be hanging around. The mob would AE every so often just to check. Dunno...sounds like something they should give some thought about.

[kasey]

Hey,
what about this idea.YOu make certain areas where the bossmobs are.When you get into this area with your guild you have 2min to get all into the area.
Then it closes.Now eq will see how many people are on your raid.The more the harder the mob will get.
Reward will be flexible too, you can just slap a random generator for the loot becuz the loot is utterly sucking and unbalanced anyways.
Make a loot key,100k hiting 1000 with this and that atk = 100/100 hp mana loot ,random stat combinations.Hitting for 2000 with 200k hp 130hp mana and so on.
Just a basic random loot generator who here and then attaches a extra rare special effect on the item or mobs tied to special effects on the items.
Making this random loot generator would fix all balance issues for them , no more loot debacles and the flames about vt loot ntov loot ssra löot wouldnt have existed.
Mobs scaling up in difficulty will remove the *bring more and win* aspect.You can control the game way better and smaller guilds of like 30-40 people get to experience the content as well.
Just some ideas

[Jobrill]

I'd say the high end raid EQ is messed up, but it always was. Those of us still 2 or 3 expansions behind seem to be having fun. Heck, I know I am.

Before I played, EQ, just about every other Online RPG I played had some way to keep fighting a monster down to one small group of people. In a way, I think as soon as the first people got the bright Idea to bring 2 or 3 groups to Crushbone and work together to get the zone cleared and try to take down Emporer Crush, The high end was doomed. Zerging has never been fun, and is a major reason I probably don't get too excited about getting high end. I'm perfectly happy exploring the mid-50s dungeons and workin on my trade skills.

Challenging One grouping >>> Zerg. And for those of us who continue to bring 2 or 3 groups to raid small zones and try to crawl through em (Mostly cuz that's all we can get) the game is still fun.

I think EQ has pretty much always been like this honestly. Least as long as I've played, since a few weeks before Kunark.

Don't mind me, I'm rambling for no apparent reason.

[Clericnon2boxed]

I wish they would make this spell (without the stun) player castable:

Donlo's Dance Party

http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=2108&source=Live

I bet the melees wouldnt mind to be as small as an ant.

[Kether]

Alot of what has been said has been correct, but also a lot has been erroneous. For those who may be interested in my views on the matter:


Flags: Friggin *horrible* idea as is. Simply ludicrous. EVERY flag encounter should drop no-drop items that can be MQd with fairly common drops from the zone of the mob in question. Such number of said drops should be roughly 1/8 of the expected raid force. What does this do? You then DON'T have to bottomfeed on mob_01 when you should be on mob_12 to flag ONE GOD DAMN PERSON. "But *WAIT*, that can be abused!" Who the fuck cares if person_1 is there for the kill (and a non-malfunctioning flag sequence). Tell me how this is WORSE than having people 6, 7, 8 BOX other people's characters for raids? Guess what? It isn't. Sure, some people may decide to off mobs and then sell the items. They have been doing that all along. So, you get some formerly rich non-guilded persons in the higher planes. Big deal. What you have DONE is made the game a LOT LESS TEDIOUS.


Class Balance and Character Progression: This is something that I *can't* believe they don't see. The MORE TIME someone has invested to get a character to point X the MORE IMPORTANT it is that that person feels valuable. Therefore with EVERY addition that adds to the perceived accumulated worth of a character (levels, aas, gear, flags) the MORE important it is to maintain class balance. If it would take you 30 hours to remake a character then fine class balance isn't important. People will hop back and forth and the committed time isn't so great as to penalize those that do. Take that to 3,000 hours and see how happy a player is if they view their class as having little worth or enjoyment. DAoC actually has this MUCH better than EQ. Sure, the classes may actually be MORE out of 'balance' but their practice is to nerf/enhance OFTEN so each class either feels good now, or know that shortly it will feel so after a few of the 'fair-weather' members of that class leave.

*************************************************

ZERGING: This is the one element that I believe is handled erroneously in most of the above replies. And the one that requires the most explanation from me.

Look at a typical 'uberguild's' roster. I am sure each and every class are represented in numbers approximating the ratio in which those classes are actually played in EQ. Of course they are NOT. So what does it do if you limit a target (through algorithms that lock encounters, TP those past X on hate list, etc) to a certain number of characters? Does it stop zerging? No. It stops CHARACTER zerging. It doesn't stop MIN/MAX zerging.

Is there *really* more skill in killing a pure melee Uber mob with 3 tanks, 8 clerics, and 29 damage dealers than with 4 members of each class? No, it isn't. The 40 (vs. the 60) has a *clear* advantage. Better healing for the purpose needed, the same or even more damage, and all with LESS lag and less clutter. You see the advantage of low numbers is its OWN reward. Mobilization is easier, recognition is easier, groups are easier, and loot density is much higher. Is it a bad thing that those 60 that don't live in such a min/maxed organization can kill that same mob but it takes them 50% more. No, it honestly isn't.

Adding hellish AoEs does NOT solve the 'problem'. Yes, if you make them bad enough you WILL kill the 200 man zerg forces. BUT you will also even further harden the class desirability lines. AS IS you CAN experience ALL content of EQ regardless of your class. Put in such sever anti-zerg AE and you have two possible scenarios:

1. They are pretty 'lurish' and then you do elminate 'zergs'. But you DON'T do it by ANY measure of 'skill'. You are doing it by force DPS/force HPs.
2. They are resistable and resists matter a LOT. Think Cursed type AE. Make it such that at only 450+ resist you don't get smoked nearly instantly. Well then, that DOES eliminate the zergs BUT does it REALLY make it 'skill'? No...its still gear separating them.

You see *ANY* means to artificially contrain numbers is bound to fail for the overall objective unless you make your solution more widely encompassing. You end up with more or less 'ringer' guilds the same way you had 'ringer' groups complete the PoJ trials in the early days of PoP.

SKILL is SKILL and is *NOT* measureable by an unspecified force defeating X. It is ONLY measureable when all of its parameters are specified. An absurd example to demonstrate what I mean. A 30 man AoW isn't spectcular anymore. Surely there will be enough clerics and nice DPS and you will get a dead AoW. How about a warrior-only AoW raid. Sure sounds a lot harder. Maybe with split-second timing of disciplines, abilities, charged items, etc it could be done. What number, what level, what AA, what gear of warriors would you need to do it? Is a 50 warrior AoW executed properly *honestly* 'zergish'?

Who will finish PoP first? Will it be FoH with their smaller force or will it be TR with their generally larger force? It will be whoever's force puts in the time and where their fuckups are less than their margin of error.

The ONLY really honest solution would be to encode mobs such that their strength scales with the stength of the force. NOT merely the numbers present. For example a encounter has a *baseline* number for its 'strength'. Every hit, heal, debuff, etc done by the force opposing it is calculated and is modified by the desired algorithm before being applied. An example to illustrate a possible mechanism. A mob is designed to sustain X DPS/ melee second or mana expended, etc. Wiz nukes for 4k, but because wizards are too 'min/maxed' towards that raid role the nuke is credited for only 2800 hp. In all honesty, that is NO more absurd than limiting the raid to X persons. In fact it is more logical. IF you could do the math AND stay ahead of those who would try to beat the system you COULD have a game where the 50 BEST PLAYERS can defeat Mob X. That is a hell of a lot better than the "best geared/AAd 3 tanks, 8 clerics, 6 buffers/debuffers, 33 damage dealers". THAT way you COULD make it more outright difficult for more or less persons than what is desired. You could also partially compensate (to whatever degree you liked) for gear/AAs/etc.

With a dynamic mob strength system you COULD:
- Make named XP mobs approximately the same 'rush' for any group.
- Make mobs that favor certain advantages more (level, resists, DPS, tanking)
- Make mobs that favor small numbers and high skill
- Make mobs that favor HIGH numbers and high skill (how about a reverse of the ST nightmare. Some mob that truly requires people to band together, perhaps 150 in zone (though not all in the same place) to defeat). Having to band together multiple guilds and even non-guilded persons to accomplish a task that makes the entire server better sounds a LOT more 'epic' to me than min/maxing a 50 man force to kill Uber Mob X with one guild.
- Make encounters where gear is as relevent as it is today (or even more so)
- Make encounters where ANY difference is more/less/none important when compared to todays rigidly fixed EQ.





What would a system like that take to implement? A *very* well designed algorithm that is made by persons who are good at engineering complex systems. *Could* I do it? Given the time, money, and support personnel I probably could. But there have been SO many glaring examples of how woefully inadequate their interest in using mathematics properly that it is hard to conceive that they even have the interest in trying such a system out. So much about PoP screams "bah, who cares about physics or tough things like math, let's just make it pretty".

Honestly, the first immersive mmog that does the above and makes EVERYONE feel like they their contribution is ALWAYS important will be a much larger success than EQ or its assumed linear decendent will be.



Kether
E'ci