Patch has come and gone and still a problem with elemental armor - Page 3

Frodlin7th · 01-10-2003, 01:55 PM

Sorry,

The problem with your argument, let's take the Warrior/Paladin AA to hitpoints ratio thing since that's easy to lay out.

Warrior has 1000 hp
Paladin has 800hp

They both get CA3 to add 10%

Warrior gains 100hp
Paladin gains 80hp

Warrior then has 1100hp
Paladin then has 880hp

This seems like the warrior is unfairly making out because he's getting 20 more raw HP than the Paladin. This is NOT the case though, because both before and after the increase, the exact same ratio of difference between the two classes still exists, the warrior still has 20% more HP than the Paladin. Had they gotten equal NUMBERS then the Paladin would've gained power over the warrior, as the percentage spread between the two would've diminished.

So, with the same AA, the paladin remains EXACTLY proportioned to the warrior with Melee aa's only

DcDohl · 01-10-2003, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Frodlin7th
Selfarine,
You have gained ON ME though, since my AA's are quite limited, as are pretty much all melee classes.

This is where you err sir. You are saying it as if Melee and Hybrid melee damage table are equal, which in fact, they are not. Do your math with your 'proportional' theory on melee dmg also and you basically contradict yourself.

Frodlin7th · 01-10-2003, 02:25 PM

Uhh,

I'm sorry to have to be the one to break it to you but all melee and hybrid classes are on the identical melee damage table except monks who are on a slightly higher one.

Azzigoth · 01-10-2003, 02:25 PM

Quote:

The thing is, that through AA's they've also GAINED ground, and ONLY in melee based AA's on warriors, through the giving out of things that were more or less specific to either warriors or melee classes in general.

Frodo, your crusade to get paladins nerfed has traveled this far?
Or is it just a flawed argument to improve warriors off the backs of paladins? Why not improve warriors for the sake of fixing them?
So a paladin gains ground on a warrior with AA skills?
What exactly is stopping that warrior from getting similar AA skills and pulling away again?

Stop comparing the best geared, full AA paladin to the shitty geared no AA warrior you fool.

translation: pull your head out of your ass you dick. there is no way a paladin and warrior of equal caliber tank the same.

Delete your warrior and make a paladin. Ya know you wanna!
Come hang out in our world of fuck before you decide whats best for us.

DcDohl · 01-10-2003, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Frodlin7th
Uhh,

I'm sorry to have to be the one to break it to you but all melee and hybrid classes are on the identical melee damage table except monks who are on a slightly higher one.

I might've misworded it, but most people get the gist of what I'm saying, don't use this shit, you and I know damn well rogue melee dmg != paladin melee dmg.

Sir Yakk · 01-10-2003, 02:33 PM

Quote:

This seems like the warrior is unfairly making out because he's getting 20 more raw HP than the Paladin. This is NOT the case though, because both before and after the increase, the exact same ratio of difference between the two classes still exists, the warrior still has 20% more HP than the Paladin. Had they gotten equal NUMBERS then the Paladin would've gained power over the warrior, as the percentage spread between the two would've diminished.

So, with the same AA, the paladin remains EXACTLY proportioned to the warrior with Melee aa's only

Larger picture, if simplified:
Before buying AA:
Paladin: 800 hps, can heal 50 HP/sec sustained, does 50 DPS (40 melee 10 spells)
Warrior: 1000 hps, does 50 DPS (all melee)

200 hps are balanced against 50 hp/sec healing.

After buying AA:
Paladin: 880 hps, can heal 55 HP/sec sustained, does 55 DPS (44 melee 11 spells)
Warrior: 1100 hps, does 55 DPS

220 hps are balanced against 55 hp/sec healing.

Both the before and after paladin/warriors are equally balanced. After buying AA, both of them are 10% better than they where before.

The paladin in order to get 10% better had to buy every AA the warrior had to, and a bunch of casting AA.

In order to preserve the same relative balance, the paladin had to buy more AA.

The funny thing is, this is such the wrong thread to argue about this.

Frodlin7th · 01-10-2003, 02:35 PM

Actually Azzigoth...the thread was started by someone other than me (This is evidenced by the name on the thread). The issues were brought up by someone other than me (Note, the AA issue was bought up by Strikan), your inability to see this is your problem.

I simply jumped in when this concept arose that somehow 190/0 or 175/0 produced the same benefit as 175/175 which it doesn't, and someone was labelled an "idiot" for thinking it, and, that somehow there's an "AA Experience penalty" which there isn't.

If you're incapable of seeing that, then please, send me your address, so I can send you a copy of Hooked on Phonics.

Otherwise, counter with facts, and not "you dick", because quite frankly, I AM a dick, a real fucking nasty one too, and pointing it out is no big surprise.

DcDohl · 01-10-2003, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Frodlin7th
I AM a dick, a real fucking nasty one too,

lol, what can I say, you are what you eat pal

Selfarine · 01-10-2003, 02:43 PM

Aww, come on, tangents are fun =)

But back to the topic of the thread, saying that all pure melee should get more hp from the armor than hybreds should be modified a bit. More along the lines of pure melee should get more hp than a hybred of the same time, ie war>pal/sk, mnk/rog>rng. So with this the hp on armor would be war>pal/sk>rog/mnk>rng, who the hell knows where a bst would fit in there. I don't see that happening due to the bitching that would take place even though it makes perfect sense for tanks to gain more hp from their armor than the damage orientated classes.

Frodlin7th · 01-10-2003, 02:46 PM

Yakk,

That's good, and I agree with your last statement that it doesn't belong on this thread.

I will say (more on topic) that I still feel that 175 mana along with 175 hitpoints does not balance with either solely 175hp or 190 hitpoints, and this is one piece only.

Patricio · 01-10-2003, 02:54 PM

K, agreeing this is not exactly the place to argue this and I'd welcome anyone to move it to another thread, but while the topic remains open here...

Take the example:
Warrior has 1000 hp
Paladin has 800hp

They both get CA3 to add 10%

Warrior gains 100hp
Paladin gains 80hp

Warrior then has 1100hp
Paladin then has 880hp

The problem now is that the reason the paladin has fewer hps than the warrior is that it's balanced against his ability to self-heal back those hps. Let's say the paladin can initially self heal 10% of his hps every so often. After he gains those 80 hps, he can now only heal back around 9% of his hps.

Before:
warrior has 1.25x the hps of the paladin
paladin is balanced because he can heal back 10% of his hps here and there.

After:
paladin has 1.25x the hps of the paladin
paladin has lost ground because he can only heal back 9% of his hps here and there, so he must augment his heals (spend more AA) to play catch-up and rebalance himself to the state before they both spent AA.

DcDohl · 01-10-2003, 02:55 PM

Fuck me if I'm wrong, but since rogues get +15% backstab on their poker, well god damn, can I get 100 more hp on my sword to balance it? Shit, I mean, I don't have backstab skill and all, but +15% backstab mod + 125hp is clearly better than a 125hp ranger sword. Fuck me if I'm wrong...

Benren · 01-10-2003, 03:07 PM

Moving off Elemental armor and onto Ornate armor for a moment, take a look at these two pieces of Bard Ornate, the two most important pieces.

Composer's Chestplate

Composer's Greaves

Anyone else get anything anywhere near this bad?

Burpme · 01-10-2003, 03:54 PM

Screw those that think it is ok to give pure melee better gear because hybrids get spells. You also get a slew of other things as well as fucking effects on your armor that qualifies as spells. Morons like you didn't even have to practice the spell casting disciplines nor worry about fizzles, nor have to deal with spells that are low level shit spells from your parent class.

Monks easily outdamage the average ranger. Are you fucking blind? What doesn't happen is monks outdamaging rangers with am3/eq and /disc trueshot. You gotta be kidding me.

If you fucking melee want to be casters too you should have been fucking hybrids. And if you think you deserve better resists and HP, fuck you too. You haven't even remotely come close to understanding your fucking advantages already.

And you have to be so fucking crazy to think that spells generate any significant dps over time. Spells are use by pal and rng to do more healing then anything else. And to think that melee are so neglected in the HP arena is so stupid. A warrior can and does get about 8-9k at the high end (currently) and pal/sk get about 2k less. Rangers get about 2K less then that. Monks/rogues get about 1k more then the ranger. Caster fucking classes are gettign 4k buffed. If you have an area to bitch about HP/AC/Spells look to the fucking SK class. They have it all. The only reason why is because Verant is a group of fucking moronic idiots.

Sir Yakk · 01-10-2003, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Moving off Elemental armor and onto Ornate armor for a moment, take a look at these two pieces of Bard Ornate, the two most important pieces.

Composer's Chestplate

Composer's Greaves

Anyone else get anything anywhere near this bad?

Is your complaint with the stats or the effects?

The effects look awesome.

From what I've seen, the Ornate armor is a step above SoV quest armor, but has (somewhat) useful effects.

01-10-2003, 02:55 PM	#42 (permalink)
DcDohl Taking one for the Team Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Massholeville, Assachusette Posts: 138 -1 Internets	and btw... Fuck me if I'm wrong, but since rogues get +15% backstab on their poker, well god damn, can I get 100 more hp on my sword to balance it? Shit, I mean, I don't have backstab skill and all, but +15% backstab mod + 125hp is clearly better than a 125hp ranger sword. Fuck me if I'm wrong... __________________ What's your excuse for cheating? You trip, fell, landed on his dick?!

01-10-2003, 03:07 PM	#43 (permalink)
Benren Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 74 -1 Internets	Bringing things down a tier... Moving off Elemental armor and onto Ornate armor for a moment, take a look at these two pieces of Bard Ornate, the two most important pieces. Composer's Chestplate Composer's Greaves Anyone else get anything anywhere near this bad?

01-10-2003, 03:54 PM	#44 (permalink)
Burpme Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8 +0 Internets	Screw those that think it is ok to give pure melee better gear because hybrids get spells. You also get a slew of other things as well as fucking effects on your armor that qualifies as spells. Morons like you didn't even have to practice the spell casting disciplines nor worry about fizzles, nor have to deal with spells that are low level shit spells from your parent class. Monks easily outdamage the average ranger. Are you fucking blind? What doesn't happen is monks outdamaging rangers with am3/eq and /disc trueshot. You gotta be kidding me. If you fucking melee want to be casters too you should have been fucking hybrids. And if you think you deserve better resists and HP, fuck you too. You haven't even remotely come close to understanding your fucking advantages already. And you have to be so fucking crazy to think that spells generate any significant dps over time. Spells are use by pal and rng to do more healing then anything else. And to think that melee are so neglected in the HP arena is so stupid. A warrior can and does get about 8-9k at the high end (currently) and pal/sk get about 2k less. Rangers get about 2K less then that. Monks/rogues get about 1k more then the ranger. Caster fucking classes are gettign 4k buffed. If you have an area to bitch about HP/AC/Spells look to the fucking SK class. They have it all. The only reason why is because Verant is a group of fucking moronic idiots. Last edited by Burpme : 01-10-2003 at 04:06 PM.

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01-10-2003, 01:55 PM	#31 (permalink)
Frodlin7th Hotkey Master Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Gonzales, La Posts: 226 -1 Internets	Sorry, The problem with your argument, let's take the Warrior/Paladin AA to hitpoints ratio thing since that's easy to lay out. Warrior has 1000 hp Paladin has 800hp They both get CA3 to add 10% Warrior gains 100hp Paladin gains 80hp Warrior then has 1100hp Paladin then has 880hp This seems like the warrior is unfairly making out because he's getting 20 more raw HP than the Paladin. This is NOT the case though, because both before and after the increase, the exact same ratio of difference between the two classes still exists, the warrior still has 20% more HP than the Paladin. Had they gotten equal NUMBERS then the Paladin would've gained power over the warrior, as the percentage spread between the two would've diminished. So, with the same AA, the paladin remains EXACTLY proportioned to the warrior with Melee aa's only

01-10-2003, 02:25 PM	#33 (permalink)
Frodlin7th Hotkey Master Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Gonzales, La Posts: 226 -1 Internets	Uhh, I'm sorry to have to be the one to break it to you but all melee and hybrid classes are on the identical melee damage table except monks who are on a slightly higher one.

01-10-2003, 02:35 PM	#37 (permalink)
Frodlin7th Hotkey Master Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Gonzales, La Posts: 226 -1 Internets	Actually Azzigoth...the thread was started by someone other than me (This is evidenced by the name on the thread). The issues were brought up by someone other than me (Note, the AA issue was bought up by Strikan), your inability to see this is your problem. I simply jumped in when this concept arose that somehow 190/0 or 175/0 produced the same benefit as 175/175 which it doesn't, and someone was labelled an "idiot" for thinking it, and, that somehow there's an "AA Experience penalty" which there isn't. If you're incapable of seeing that, then please, send me your address, so I can send you a copy of Hooked on Phonics. Otherwise, counter with facts, and not "you dick", because quite frankly, I AM a dick, a real fucking nasty one too, and pointing it out is no big surprise.

01-10-2003, 02:43 PM	#39 (permalink)
Selfarine Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3 +0 Internets	Aww, come on, tangents are fun =) But back to the topic of the thread, saying that all pure melee should get more hp from the armor than hybreds should be modified a bit. More along the lines of pure melee should get more hp than a hybred of the same time, ie war>pal/sk, mnk/rog>rng. So with this the hp on armor would be war>pal/sk>rog/mnk>rng, who the hell knows where a bst would fit in there. I don't see that happening due to the bitching that would take place even though it makes perfect sense for tanks to gain more hp from their armor than the damage orientated classes.

01-10-2003, 02:46 PM	#40 (permalink)
Frodlin7th Hotkey Master Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Gonzales, La Posts: 226 -1 Internets	Yakk, That's good, and I agree with your last statement that it doesn't belong on this thread. I will say (more on topic) that I still feel that 175 mana along with 175 hitpoints does not balance with either solely 175hp or 190 hitpoints, and this is one piece only.

01-10-2003, 02:54 PM	#41 (permalink)
Patricio Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 24 -1 Internets	K, agreeing this is not exactly the place to argue this and I'd welcome anyone to move it to another thread, but while the topic remains open here... Take the example: Warrior has 1000 hp Paladin has 800hp They both get CA3 to add 10% Warrior gains 100hp Paladin gains 80hp Warrior then has 1100hp Paladin then has 880hp The problem now is that the reason the paladin has fewer hps than the warrior is that it's balanced against his ability to self-heal back those hps. Let's say the paladin can initially self heal 10% of his hps every so often. After he gains those 80 hps, he can now only heal back around 9% of his hps. Before: warrior has 1.25x the hps of the paladin paladin is balanced because he can heal back 10% of his hps here and there. After: paladin has 1.25x the hps of the paladin paladin has lost ground because he can only heal back 9% of his hps here and there, so he must augment his heals (spend more AA) to play catch-up and rebalance himself to the state before they both spent AA.