Command of Druzzil exploit, fix?

[Aflack Saryrn]

Except due to CoD every enchanter is duo'ing or soloing so aren't in groups anyway.

Well if you really think this than thats your opinion to do so. Ignore the fact that I've seen level 65 Enchanter LFG so many times in places like BoT, PoV, PoS. I'm a CoD Ench, and in places like BoT I will find a group, and will never solo there. Why you ask? Simple mobs summon there, and survivability in a group when charm breaks increases exponetially rather than soloing them.

And death isn't a risk with graveyards and 96% resses, sorry.

So what your saying rezzes, and graveyards are overpwering right? Hmmm so tell me when was the last time you took a 96 rez or waited for a corpse at the graveyard to pop. DAMN you you have exploited the game by doing that. Have you also figured in the time that a dead Enchanter has to spend in looking for a rez. If no cleric is in my group, and i die soloing then guess what, im spending at least 10 min looking for a rez, figure in the time to med my mana back if I've already used GM or just planning on saving it for emergencies, im down at least 30 min. If I die in a place like BoT with no cleric, and there arent any rezzers around then im screwed even more.

Enchanter_01 tells guild: I died in BoT, any clerics availible for a rez?
Cleric_01 tells guild: Sorry im in a group.
Cleric_02 tells guild: I'm not flagged yet.
Cleric_03 tells guild: So sorry, I'm in a group as well.
Enchanter_01 says out of charactor: Anyone availbe for a rez?
Cleric-04 says out of charactor: sorry in tower.

Hmmmm what does this mean, while our "overpower" spell just got us killed, now we are stuck somewhere waiting for a rez. Have you ever thought about things like that?

Going back to the graveyard portion of your opinion. The graveyard is a tool that everyone enjoys. It is not availible only for enchanters, if you died in a dangerous place and are waiting for your corpse to pop there, your doing the same thing as a enchanter would. Quite being so hippocritical, if your gonna bash about rezzs and graveyards, then agree to not use those yoursleves when you die and we can talk. Till then, I know you wont be doing it, shut up.

Sage Aflack Dukky
65 Coercer
Saryrn Server

[Maegril]

Originally posted by Aflack Saryrn


so what your saying rezzes, and graveyards are overpwering right? Hmmm so tell me when was the last time you took a 96 rez or waited for a corpse at the graveyard to pop. DAMN you you have exploited the game by doing that.

Let's try a little math. I'm going to define a basis of common assumptions:

Charmed ench. pets do approx 300 DPS.

2 generic melee, cleric, and chanter also do approx 300 DPS.

Mobs give 1% reg exp on a single kill.

1 out of every 10 mobs will kill a character.

Chanter solos 10. Dies. Eats the death for 6% or so exp loss.

Net gain, 4% in 10 mobs.

4 person group gets, let's say, a 10% bonus. That's 11% exp divided four ways. Something like 2.75% per character net gain, not including a random death. Let's say the chanter eats the death, yet gets a res. He's down to 1.75% exp. If he's lucky, though, someone else (cleric, perhaps, or melee) eats the exp loss.

So now, as an intelligent chanter with skilz, which pathway do you choose? And let's be honest, most chanters with their spells can fill slot 1. I certainly am nowhere close to being able to fill the 150 DPS slot 2 as a melee, even with full chanter buffs. It gets worse as you add more folks to the group.

Even if being grouped completely negates the risk (which it doesn't), the chanter would still be stupid to stick with the group unless he's simply incapable of dealing with a charmed pet intelligently. And due to the spell, it's just not that likely to happen, sorry. Extended range, spell haste, etc.. all help out. How much space do you need to get a mez off before the pet gets back to you? Is it still within the exp radius? If so, your risk percentage is the percentage chance to fizzle or have your mez resisted.

Charm as an ability is fine. The problem is the massive increase in DPS for pop mobs over players. A mob with 150% the damage of a character might be balanced. a mob with 150% the damage of a group simply isn't. It's not important whether you risk death, really. If you eat every death unrezzed, you're still ahead of the game, because you've basically got a group of melee powerlevelling you.

Anyone who can charm a mob and use it to kill another mob that gives them 1% or more exp per kill (bard friend put frogs in PoS at 2.5 frogs per blue, so that's something like 1.4% roughly per kill) in 5 mins, is an utter fucking moron for sitting around and waiting on a res if they die. In the 10 min that it'd take to simply recover mana from the res, you'd have 1/3 of the exp loss back. If it takes you half an hour to find a res, you've lost out. Of course, you're intelligent and just loot all but one item, med from half mana or whatever boost your gear gives you, and go out and get another 15% exp in the hour and a half it takes for a cleric to zone in and /tell enchanter Hey, your corpse is in the GY. need a click?

But really, the downside of charming is properly balanced.

(Personally, I think slapping a 30% slow on the pet as an effect of the charm would work just fine. *shrug* The pet then becomes a super group member, but can't solo without a bit more effort on the chanter's part.)

[Aflack Saryrn]

Now dont get me wrong, I will use CoD in my normal exp grinds. No way am i arguing that xp is better in group. What I am arguing about is how people are complaining the risk vs reward aspect of the game. Using a arguement saying well theres the graveyard and a 96 rez out there that a Enchanter can use is total nonsense. No matter how good a Enchanter is, he will die using CoD (sometimes a lot more often than 1 time out of 10). Also you forgot to mention dowtime medding if things get ugly (which will happen pretty often). If partnered with a ranger or druid, chances go down a lot (which is how i prefer doing it).

The fact of the matter is, those tools (rezzes, and graveyards) are availible to everyone in the game. Ever had a wipe doing a mob in PoP. Nothing like the graveyard to save the day for you, and a 96 rez to minimize the loss. This is not availible to only Enchanters, it is availible to everyone. Trying to justify nerfing a classes primary spells under those basis is stupid. Charm is a spell that we recieved since level 12, meaning its something that has been in our spellbook for a very long time, it didnt just pop up on us with the release of PoP.

The fact also is this, solo xp has always been a better way to xp ever since we where level 1. Pre-PoP, there wasnt many people complaining that oh so and so can solo mobs lets nerf them. during those times, Enchanters wherent soloing a lot either. Now with CoD we do solo a bit more. NOTE: we are not the only class that solos in PoP, so stop whining like we are. Yes with PoP some classes just cannot solo, the same reasons why chanters solo so well, the dps of mobs are just insane in PoP, but doesnt mean you cant duo with another class and get decent xp as well. As mentioned before, I often duo when xp grinding so i dont have to worry about dieng as much.

Sage Aflack Dukky
65 Coercer
Saryrn Server

[Lin]

What I am arguing about is how people are complaining the risk vs reward aspect of the game.

Never had a pet kill me except from the rare LDs. Risk: 0. Reward: About 6x that of grouping with people who can't charm. If I moved my cleric to another account, there would be little penalty even to LDing.

Charm is a spell that we recieved since level 12, meaning its something that has been in our spellbook for a very long time, it didnt just pop up on us with the release of PoP.

Then keep using your level 12 charm.

The fact also is this, solo xp has always been a better way to xp ever since we where level 1. Pre-PoP, there wasnt many people complaining that oh so and so can solo mobs lets nerf them.

Pre-PoP meleers could solo too, they can't now. That might clue you into something, mobs are more powerful. If you connect the dots you'll see that using said overpowered mobs to deal damage is overpowered.

NOTE: we are not the only class that solos in PoP, so stop whining like we are.

No one has whined that you are, you're delusional or paranoid, take your pick.

Yes with PoP some classes just cannot solo, the same reasons why chanters solo so well, the dps of mobs are just insane in PoP, but doesnt mean you cant duo with another class and get decent xp as well. As mentioned before, I often duo when xp grinding so i dont have to worry about dieng as much.

i.e I'm overpowered and I'm okay with that, please stop picking on me and go get some paltry dribble of XP you lesser non-charm classes can scrape up or worship at my feet and I might let you leech some XP from me when I'm too bored or just not up to soloing.

[Szlia]

One could also add to Maegril post that when soloing there is zero down time related to gathering the group or finding replacements. If a solo chanter does just eat the deaths the downtime related to death is also minimal (mem spells, run to corpse, loot). Even more so in places like BoT.

[Aflack Saryrn]

Wow, never had a jelous little brat try to put words in my mouth to make themselves feel better. Lets put it this way, if you have so much envy (obvious lin you do) go make a chanter. Actually try soloing with charm. You will find out its not very easy. I'm not here to try and convince you of anything, since you are beyond someone talking sense to you. Prove to me how charm has no risk at all, and actually make a sensable arguement about it, not cut and past what i wrote and write garbage as a reply.

Im not doubting CoD is a powerful spell. But so are a lot of spells post 63+ that other class have. So are the skills that other class get. Ever see a ranger with all of their archery skills maxed out? DPS is about 180+ with it. Takes about 3 min to kill a mob in PoV, which translates to about a AA per 40 min or so, also with MUCH less risk that a Enchanter goes through. Or a necro with some of their spells, takes them about 30 min to get a AA as well, again has less of a risk of dieing than a enchanter. When i fight with CoD, i get a AA in about 50min to a hour. If i solo, I have a chance to get it a AA in about 25 min to 30 min. Oh wow, so your stupid little warrior friends cant do that, or your little cleric friends also, boo hoo. Have them tag along with a ranger or someone who is willing. Make friends with the people who can do it instead of crying like a little bitch.

You cry that CoD is overpower, and the risk vs reward is off with that spell. You need to look around a bit and and see some of what your other fellow players are doing. If you dont like it, then go back to soloing velks and stop your crying.

Sage Aflack Dukky
65 Coercer
Saryrn Server

[Aflack Saryrn]

Szila if I solo in BoT, I will die much more often than 1 in 10 kills. Places in valor i can agree I might die about 1 out of 10 kills. Why you ask? Simple, mobs in BoT summon, once charm breaks (in about 4-5 kills or so, I can count on dieng about 80% of the time. One thing that maegril missed also is the unknown factor. He only used what is hard numbers, which doesnt go for the unexplained. Charms breaking early and running to get things under control. A bad pull which brings me a extra mob I didnt want. This is the reason why I DONT solo, but would rather go as a duo with a ranger/druid or something.

Sage Aflack Dukky
65 Coercer
Saryrn Server

[Turonyen]

Charm is a spell that we recieved since level 12, meaning its something that has been in our spellbook for a very long time, it didnt just pop up on us with the release of PoP.

Then keep using your level 12 charm.

Hail, a_retard.

Stupidest comment I've ever seen. Why aren't you still using your newbie dagger or sword? Why aren't you using your level 4 nuke anymore? Oh that's right because as you level you get upgrades.

Dumbfuck.

Turonyen
Level 65 Enchanter
Tholuxe Paells

[Maegril]

Originally posted by Aflack Saryrn
Wow, never had a jelous little brat try to put words in my mouth to make themselves feel better. Lets put it this way, if you have so much envy (obvious lin you do) go make a chanter. Actually try soloing with charm. You will find out its not very easy. I'm not here to try and convince you of anything, since you are beyond someone talking sense to you. Prove to me how charm has no risk at all, and actually make a sensable arguement about it, not cut and past what i wrote and write garbage as a reply.

Do you understand english, here?

Nobody's saying you have no risk.

Look at my numbers. Are you dying more than one charm in 10? If so, frankly, you suck. The enchanters I know who charm solo tend to die one time in 20 or less. And it gets to be far less after you're over the initial hump of zero charm AAs/zero farmed loots for gears/etc.

Re-read my numbers. It's not that charm has no risk. It's that the risk is small enough that it makes zero sense to ever care about it, unless you just happen to not like to solo. This is a problem.

Fundamentally, charm== 1 (or, if you're not being conservative, more) full group of melee PLing the charmer. (Yeah, it's just as bad for druids, mages, and anyone else who can charm high level PoP mobs.) Except solo, you don't need a healer, and your melee are disposable.

It's not about zero risk. It's about reward far, far outweighing the risk in terms of any metric you want to use. Hell, look at what I said again.. you're ahead if you just eat a death and continue killing, rather than looking for a res for a mere 30 minutes. Tell me anywhere else in the game where you can gain more exp in 30 minutes than you lost to death. There's no such place, because, frankly, no expansion has had the fundamental balance that PoP has. Huge hitting mobs with relatively modest HP are challenging and balanced for PvE. They're completely unbalanced for EvE. The exp is tuned to account for the downtime that groups have in dealing with things that routinely hit for 500-600 pts a pop. So are the drops. It's not tuned for being able to plug in a disposable mob that you want to die yet does something like 1.5-2x a group's damage, all by itself.

In summery: There is risk. It's just so woefully pathetic compared to the insane reward, that it's completely out of whack with every non-charm method of play. If this wasn't true, Magi wouldn't be charming to fight, and druids wouldn't be charming to fight, they'd all be using their traditional tools. When classes give up their traditional tools to use ones appropriated from another class, then the tool is overpowered.

[Aflack Saryrn]

Ill just end with this, as, obviously I'm not going to convince anyone, and they are not going to convince me either.

In summery: There is risk. It's just so woefully pathetic compared to the insane reward, that it's completely out of whack with every non-charm method of play. If this wasn't true, Magi wouldn't be charming to fight, and druids wouldn't be charming to fight, they'd all be using their traditional tools. When classes give up their traditional tools to use ones appropriated from another class, then the tool is overpowered.

Since when was charming something that wasnt "traditional" for Enchanters. let me say this one more time. Charm is a spell we had since level 12. Ive used the charm line consistantly ever since level 35. Since when was it tradition for us to sit there, crack the group and slow mobs. Hell pre-pop I rarely slowed mobs in sebalis, was no need. I have ALWAYS gotten better xp soloing than I have in groups. This didnt just spring up with PoP. It has always been there. Same with druids, they get their first charm spell at level 24. How is that not a "traidional" way to xp, when they have had that spell since then? Have you ever seen a druid charm solo pre-pop? Have you ever seen a Enchanter solo pre-pop? If not, then you didnt get out much at all.

PoP made xping much easier for ALL classes out there. Charm soloing has ALWAYS been a better form of xping than a regular group. Hell you still see Enchanters prefer grouping over charm soloing, even if they have CoD. If you want a spell nerfed cuz its about the right line of a upgrade for the level you obtain it, that is your preference. However, why stop there, why not just nerf Rangers archery skill. Why not let necros lose all their snare spells so they cant solo. Why not reduce a Warriors AC and HP? Why not lessen the heals of a cleric? When you sit there and blow shit out of your ass saying lets nerf the Enchanters and their precious spells, you fail to consider this. When all classes level, they ALL become more powerfull. You seem to forget little shit like that.

As mentioned before, yes I get better xp using charm fighting. Its no secret, everyone knows this. Your argueing with me about a point I agree upon. Something that you have obviously missed though, charming is NOT something that poped up at level 64 with CoD. If you want I can list my whole line of charm spells since level 12. Everyone also knows this, mobs have ALWAYS had better DPS then PC, which means this; ever since they fixed the xp distribution, Enchanters have ALWAYS recieved better xp charm soloing, some never decided to use this. To say that CoD is overpowering is just plain stupid. If it is, then list your class here, and I can list a skill that is just as powerfull in a different manner. Gawd, think about the big picture before you start talking like a narrow minded ass.

Sage Aflack Dukky
65 Coercer
Saryrn Server

[Rthen]

I think it is abundantly obvious that class balance has been thrown out the window never to be looked at again.

Yeah Enchanters have had charm thoughtout their careers.. however they have never been able to rake in the exp the way they have been recently.

When "required" group classes can solo better then ones that never get groups easily there is a problem.

No matter how you dice it or dress it up Enchanters should not be out-soloing Necros or Mages.

Don't give me that the mage charm is effective in BoT. Its many times over more risky and mages should not even have charm to begin with for christ sake! We should have even more powerful normal pets and spells to solo in places like BoT.

The game is very much broken in some areas now. Maybe I should thank SoE. I'm finally catching up on some TV shows I have been missing since my play time = 1/2 what it was before PoP.

[Thorbadin]

Just a few comments first about the "we have been using charm since day 1 of eq".

Well, pre-luclin the lvl limit was 60, no aa yet. No one cared if you soloed for insane xp with it or not. In the history of eq there has been much worse case like afk xp and stuff like that. I think the biggest thing to happen with charm at the time was killing AoW for the first time using dictate pet. Took alot more skill then it would take using the today's CoD and was nerfed nearly instantly.

Now in luclin they added aa xp. The best xp to get was in ae group, initially in the grey, then in the deep, fg, sh etc. I remember being in the middle of chardok and had to get out when the enchanter said his spot on the ae group in FG just opened, was telling us what value he was putting in our group.

I think the point with the current charm is that it's basically the ae group of pop.

In luclin and I'm certain that my fellow meleers and others can relate, I did 80% of my xp soloing or botting another class killing shroom in fg until the xp change.

So some classes can charm and others can't. We point at enchanter because their charm is alot easier to get and work everywhere.

As an anecdote I remember when our first druid got it's lvl 65 charm, a while back. He had been lfg for like hours and we needed a healer in pos so we grouped him. Druids are really not bad healers with the 5k heal for xp group too. He started playing with charm, it's then I realise he could charm the toad and other crap in this zone. After a few buffs, I parsed the toad at like 300dps. I haven't heard that druid being lfg again as he doesn't "need" to anymore.

The only enchanter I group with are the shitty enchanter of pov or bot from other members. Thank god shaman got swift like the wind imo as it's my primary source of haste for xp group.

I won't argue about risk for soloing enchanter here but will take that much more easier example:

In a normal good group you have 1 cleric, 1 enchanter, 1 support class/dmg dealer and 3 others dmg dealer/puller/tank. An enchanter can group with 1 cleric and possibly 1 support class (druid/shaman/ranger) and xp using charm completly skiping the "melee"/dmg dealer portion of the group replacing it by 1 pet. Being duo or trio with a cleric totally negate any risk regarding death (death will also be alot less frequent). Downtime for creating a group of 2-3 is minimal and even thought adding other members will make you kill stuff faster, your xp will decrease for each new member. Adding a melee in the group is even worse as you now have the added overhead of healing him.

You can ask yourself why it's hardcoded in eq to have melee automatically be the tank over pet in melee range if you want to.

Enchanter get point out more as they are part of the holy trinity where no one care about necro and druid in group theorically. I would group a necro/druid instantly in place where they can charm like pot but I know that when they group their xp efficienty go down and they basically do it cause they are bored or glad to help us or something.

You cannot have 3/4 of the classes in eq bound to have shitty xp by design and call that balanced. It used to be the same deal with ae group and we used to have the same kind of thread for it too. Imbalance like that are bad for the game, would be bad for any online game.

Thorbadin
Triton

[Rthen]

Thor,

Your absolutly right. I am happy to see that I am nto the only person to think this way.

[Liz]

Hate to break it to you but a full group can get aa/20 mins with ench pet easier than ench can solo that aa in the same amount of time. So instead of sitting here crying about your crappy aa gaining ability why don't you go make friends w/an enchanter (unless of course you're the mage everyone seems to hate)?

[Rthen]

I have an enchanter friend.

Why should theysacrifice their exping being saddled with a class that cannot pull their own? The pulls are only marginally faster for them duoed with another class..