Command of Druzzil exploit, fix?

[WarderX]

Haha, the funniest thing on these boards is when Exploiters come and admit they exploit then try to rationalize it.

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[Tancred]

"Hi, do you know what the fuck it's like to sit in a zone for five hours LFG?"

Nope cos I log off and do something more productive after about 45 mins and I recommend you all try doing the same.
If you're dumb enough to waste 5 hours of your time like this it's nobody's fault but your own.

[djgonzo]

There's nothing wrong with enchanters charming stuff in PoP and soloing crap. Enchanters would be boring as hell in exp groups without charm.

However camping out so your pet regens to full health is fucking lame. Real enchanters don't need to exploit crap to be able to solo. Velking down named mobs with crappy regen is also ghey.

[Coquetry]

I've seen parses of charmed PoP pets(in this case it was an elemental in BoT charmed by a mage) parsing at 1k DPS. 1000 DPS, over an entire fight, not for just five seconds. Explain to me when in the past has a single enchanter even been able to do as much damage as a group of rogues?

Zorg this information is quite misleading. You are quoting a parse from a magician's charmed pet, while crying about how enchanter charms are overpowered. You see Magician's are "a pet class", and as "a pet class" they enjoy a special line of pet buffs in both the form of spells and summoned items. From their spells Burnout V and Muzzle of Mardu they are capable of hasting their pet at ~110% (85%+25%), wheras enchanters' pets have a "paltry" 68% from Speed of Vallon. Another thing to throw into the mix are mage summoned weapons, which further enhance mage charmed pets DPS over the enchanters' counterparts.

Let's take a term that gets thrown around often when talking balance, "risk vs. reward". The rewards of PoP charming are obvious. On my server, there's a level 65 enchanter who routinely sells runes and BoT miniboss loot she's soloed for(she's a complete asshole who exploits and trains and KSes to do so, but that's beside the point). There are only two classes that have any chance whatsoever of doing something like soloing BoT wing bosses. Mages and enchanters. Why? They're using obscenely overpowered charms. The same charming classes can easily pull in an AA every 30 minutes, 20 minutes if they're good.

You state that charming is overpowered because exploiters can use it to solo BoT mini-bosses. However, as anyone who has actually tried to solo a BoT mini-boss with a pet knows that in a straight up fight, your pet will get owned, and then you will get owned shortly there-after. This is a simple case of fixing an exploit, and fixing mobs with crappy regen. Again, while these charm spells are powerful, you are grossly overstating their capabilities.

The rewards of charm are obviously immense, but what about the risks? A level 65 well-AAed chanter can have 2.8k of runes, along with their regular HP. Even against a buffed mob that's just broken charm, that's enough HP to get off a fast casting mez like Bliss, or gate. Of course, the enchanter's probably not even going to get hit when charm breaks, because the vast majority of tier 1-3 mobs don't summon! And if by some twist of fate the charmer does die? Wait a few minutes for their corpse to pop in the GY and take 0.2% exp loss from a 56 rez. The risk in PoP charming is minimal, the reward is incredible. That's the definition of imbalance.

In zones with good loot, such as BoT where runes and ornate armor can drop, mobs do summon. So when charm breaks, you've got 2 angry mobs beating your ass down is 7k hps (3k rune + 4k self buffed caster hps) enough to regain control of the situation? The answer is clearly no, while the channeling is improbable at best, the stuns would make it impossible. In zones such as valor, where the mobs don't summon, who gives a shit? The loot is non-existant, so this just means its casters soloing for great xp. Something casters have always been able to do.

While everyone would agree that enchanters' charmed pets are a powerful tool, they are nowhere as powerful as you make them out to be, nor are they without their risk, as their significant firepower can, and often does come to bear on the people using the charms.

[Liz]

Why is it anytime the topic of "Charm" comes up, regardless of context people start whipping out the OMG NERF NERF NERF spam? The tread is about gimp ass enchs that have to "sploit" to solo. Yet the herd starts once again screaming NERF charm.

Zoning out to clear aggro and ch pet is lame, same for low regen mobs.

For those of you screaming charm is over powered... It's called risk vs. reward. You know what happens when a hasted, dual wielding PoP pets breaks charm and you happen to get hit? 90% of the time someone DIES! Is the mad aaexp that comes from that pet worth dying for? Hell yes it is.

Enchanters are finally having fun in groups and on raids, mez actually works sometimes and having a pet is real fun; especially when it breaks and kills a cleric.

So stop w/the nerf charm spam and get back on topic... Thx

[friss]

Keep going and nerf enchanter's and see what happens. It will not be the first time enchanter's have been nerfed, and guess who gets hurt the most. For the most part enchanter's are a rare class and every grp wants one in pop, but if we get nerfed it is back to bazaar selling KEI to make plat for our twinks.

After luclin came out I had clerics complain, that enchanter's stop playing after they get DC, and guess what they did. In the end it is the person that spends 4 hours looking for a grp now who will be hurt, because they better be prepared to wait a lot longer after any hard nerf to the ench class.

[Melrin_Specclaster]

'fast casting mez like Bliss, or gate'

Wth are you thinking. Fast casting mez like bliss...I'm confused, whats so fast casting about it. Hows it any different than any other mez? And 2.5 seconds isnt fast when you're getting quaded, even by an unhasted pet.

You should have seen my cleric bitching last night EVERY time charm broke cause it beelined her. In 1 round, especially since they were normally sitting, they would lose roughly 60% of their hp. If I didnt mez or recharm it before 2nd round, what do you think would happen. No risk? Hello!

[Spontaneous Cumbustion]

Keep going and nerf enchanter's and see what happens. It will not be the first time enchanter's have been nerfed, and guess who gets hurt the most. For the most part enchanter's are a rare class and every grp wants one in pop

Except due to CoD every enchanter is duo'ing or soloing so aren't in groups anyway.

And death isn't a risk with graveyards and 96% resses, sorry.

[kasey]

Except due to CoD every enchanter is duo'ing or soloing so aren't in groups anyway.

I dont know any enchanter who likes to solo, i dont know anyone who likes to solo.Infact our 6k hp uber druids bitch all the time they cant get groups while they do 20-25min per aa point.I count druids to enchanter soloing since they use the same method and a powerful spell.
Its bull that you say either its no risk to die, its hard to get resses and its almost impossible at bad offhours.I am a cleric and i know why i am saying this.
At level 46 i charmed a drolvarg in kc and gave it two finesteel weapons and haste back then.I had a Greensilken drape and alot of crap gear.I could pull 8 mobs and it wouldnt be worth casting mezzes since my damn pet solod the whole train.
That was in a full group in finesteel with healer and if i wouldnt get my stun of within 1 second when charm breaks or less i would be toast.
I did like 500% damage of this badly equipped group and people screamed nerf.Welcome to yesterday.Kalorek'dar was soloed by enc while he was uber, keldor'dek torek was solod by enc while he was uber.Statue been solod by enc , klandicar and many more bossmobs.
You cant control charm well,it addes alot of fun to the game and i love it.Even tho i am not an enchanter anymore, i am really really happy enchanter have such a powerful ability.
You all should be happy, that will make xping faster and more fun and more challenging.Thats how i got my xp all the time,charm is one of the few real fun abilities in this game.
So well, charm seems to be more safe in pop,yea.May be you could adjust that a little, it has to be a small nerf not making it useless and also affecting necros and druids who can charm equal hitting mobs.
If anyone could come up with ideas would be great, may be something like uhm as soon the pet breaks it gets a self buff ,
40% self haste stacking with all haste buffs already buffed on the pet temporary for a few seconds + mr buff.For all charms,
oh well i am just happy my mates can xp faster now, yall should be too p

[Zorg]

While I realize that it takes preparation to get that pet doing 800 DPS, there's no reason a well-prepared enchanter can't get a couple mage weapons and a haste mask before they go charming. Even just by tossing SoV on a charm you've got a pet doing a couple hundred DPS.

Enchanters have always been able to do good DPS with charm, but the risk always associated with it has been decreased, while the imbalance between mob strength and player strength has given charm a far higher reward. Risk vs. reward is out of balance, increase the first(which would be hard to do) or decrease the second.

[Parm Vomgrossenhirn]

Originally posted by Zorg
While I realize that it takes preparation to get that pet doing 800 DPS, there's no reason a well-prepared enchanter can't get a couple mage weapons and a haste mask before they go charming.

Did you factor into the DPS equation the time it would take you to go find a mage and get some muzzles, some weapons, etc.? If you didn't, then your dps figure is off base.

Remember, if a chanter is using buffs or items from other players, it's not soloing, it's powerleveling. And if a chanter is grouped with other classes who are contributing to the pet in some way, they are all benefitting from this ability.

The obvious fix for the BoT bosses this thread was originally about is to simply make the boss mob regen to 100% while the chanter is camped out, just like the pet. there are good reasons why mobs regen to 100% as soon as you zone out or camp. It prevents people from using zone-outs as cheesy ways to gimp mobs. Why the bosses don't regen like this already I don't know, but there's no reason to nerf CoD just to stop someone gimping a BoT boss.

By the way, when I'm soloing I'll often camp out to clear aggro, heal a pet, etc. It's not an exploit. It might be gimp to take advantage of this to kill a boss mob that does not regen, but it's not an exploit. Monks camp out to lose aggro all the time while feigned and I will camp out for this purpose too. For instance, I'm charm soloing a pair of Wrulons in HoH, my pet is killing off the other Wrulon but it got too close to the path and one of the Lieutenant wanderers aggros on me. I mez him but I'm too LOM to hold him, my pet is almost dead, etc. I'll just park the pet and camp out far enough away that when I log back in the LT is wandering off, the pet is back to 100%, etc. It goes both ways. I've had to camp out on mobs that were almost dead and have to basically kill them again when I logged in, because I had to lose aggro on something I didn't have the mana to control. There's nothing wrong with that strategy in general, it's only a gimp application of it against BoT bosses. Oh well.

[KorenskySZ]

its absolutely correct that the power of charms has gone up with PoP. I wont dispute that solo charmers are getting better xp than ever before.

but you know what?....

so is everyone else. Comprende? Everyone gets far, far better xp than they ever have in PoP, thats one of the nice things about the expansion. Whats important is not stats like "20 minute aas!", it would be a proper comparison to a group with the same level of gear/skill as the enchanter in question. Lets do that comparison now, shall we? (and yes, I already did this in another thread)

Time to get an aa point
'Average' group in Luclin: aa/3-4 hours
'Average' enchanter in Luclin: aa/1.5-2 hours

'uber' group in Luclin: aa/1.5-2 hours
'uber' enchanter in Luclin: aa/45 minutes

'Average' group in PoP: aa/1.5-2 hours
'Average' enchanter in PoP: aa/45 minutes

'uber' group in PoP: aa/45 minutes
'uber' enchanter in PoP: aa/20 minutes

Things change, but the numbers are at the heart of the balance scheme. People dont like what enchanters can do with Command of Druzzil, thats fine - in some cases they are doing things they should not be able to and said things need to be(and to some measure have been) addressed. The ability itself however, is quite fine, and quite in line with what enchanters have been able to do since the game's release: solo better xp than a regular group with far more inherent danger in doing it.

[Lin]

its absolutely correct that the power of charms has gone up with PoP. I wont dispute that solo charmers are getting better xp than ever before.

Glad you were able to figure that out at least.

but you know what?....

so is everyone else. Comprende?

Uh, no. Ignore for a minute that PoP stripped meleers of their ability to solo at all, the fact is that the XP change pretty much rewards DPS linearly. Kill a mob with 2x as many HPs and you get 2x as much XP so the higher your DPS the higher your XP rate. PoP mob DPS went up by 4x if not more on other mobs so charm XP also went up 4x. Hands up anyone without charm if your DPS quadrupled with PoP. *crickets*

[KorenskySZ]

my xp went from 45 minutes/aa to 20 minutes/aa with PoP. The typical uber group's xp went from 1.5 hours/aa to 45 minutes/aa.

So my soloing got 44% better, while a group with high end gear got 50% better.

If you've seen different trends in your groups, please let me know. If my statistics are wrong, we should probably correct them in the interest of having a reasonable and productive debate.

[Drinn]

Originally posted by KorenskySZ
my xp went from 45 minutes/aa to 20 minutes/aa with PoP. The typical uber group's xp went from 1.5 hours/aa to 45 minutes/aa.

So my soloing got 44% better, while a group with high end gear got 50% better.

If you've seen different trends in your groups, please let me know. If my statistics are wrong, we should probably correct them in the interest of having a reasonable and productive debate.

Dear jackass, if you used to get an AA in 45 and it now takes you only 20, that is less than 50% of the time, this means you recieved a bigger boost in the speed at which you AA than full groups. (it only takes you 44% as long, so a 56% increase in AA speed)