PoP = The Death of the casual/semi-casual player

[Rthen]

"How do you even know what PoP group make-up looks like if you only get a group once a month?"

I have raided targets in tier 1 - 3 PoP planes weekly since release. Raids are one thing.. exp groups quite another. I am not flagged beyond that but if what I have been seeing so far is any indication then the entire progression system sucks. Int he long run it will hurt guilds more then it helps because there will be little inclination to redo material for replacement members. People move on in all guilds and PoP seems to discorage recruitment by having to force guilds to redo a liner keying process for recruits.


"Are you mad because they released a "uber exclusive expansion" and you a non-uber as it would be cannot see it's content?"

I don't care about material I cannot or might never see. What I care about is the health of the game and my ability to avance in both levels and AA. My focus (beyond helping my guild when it raids) has always been levels then AA (since SoL). If I am unable to obtain AA exp once I am at max level then I see a problem.

Right now the keying process DISCORAGES guilds from recruitng members that are not flagged up to where they are presently. it will kill the game.

Right now classes out side of the "needed" ones are LFG for hours usually when lookign for an exp group.

"Uhh.. wait for the next 1-65(70) expansion. Duh..
So when do you stop complainning?"

I have seldom complained on forums such as these however I think the current state of the game merrits some complaints.

Mages, Wizards, Necromancers, even Shadowknights and Pallys all do some really nice DPS now. The problem is that without certain classes (Cleric, Slower, Snarer, Tank) groups cannot perform in PoP zones. There are a limited number of open slots (maybe 2) in each group that Mages, Wizards, Necromancers, SK's, and Pally's are competing for.

If SoE is going to discorage players from playing certain classes perhaps they should be upfront about it.

personally I think its a balance issue to do with reputation of some classes. For example, take away the mages ability to solo well but give him much greater DPS. The plan must have been that groups would see this and prefer them. The problem is now Mages have to deal with competing with: Rogues, Rangers, Wizards, and Monks for a damage spot AND deal with the "only good for mod rod 2" reputation that exists currently. mages might be on equal footing with other damage classes but the class reputation puts us at a disadvantage.

" Do we need a warning sticker on the package that says its for power gamers only? I think that's actually how it was marketed.."

So it was marketed for peopel that play 40+ hours a week?

That is absurd to think this should have been marketed only toward that crowd..

I play 30 hours a week on average. My issues are not with not seeing all the content.. they are with the progression system for access and the ability to solo being ripped away.

"PoP for casual gamers=free ports and easy tradeskills. You spent 20$ on a game without even knowing what the fuck it was first? read a review or something first.."

I read the review. I think its a great expansion beyodn the fact it just stopped me and many others from progressing smoothly in AAs since we need groups to and cannot find them.

[Kneesmasher]

Paladins make excellent tanks in PoP zones like PoV, PoS, BoT, CoD, etc. If a Paladin has halfway decent gear, then he should have plenty of hit points to keep the Cleric flush with mana, and Paladins can gain aggro and hold aggro better than many warriors.

Stuns = instant aggro. In BoT, the monk brings us a giant, FD's, I hit the giant with a Stun, he charges me, I hit him with another stun (yes, these are all resisted or don't take effect, but they are still hoss aggro generators!) and he's mine. The rogue doesn't have to worry about aggro, the Chanter/Shaman can slow without worry of aggro, the wizard/mage can nuke without worry of aggro and all I have to do is cast my dinky little 10-mana level 9 Cease stun spell to maintain aggro throughout the fight.

Paladins make GREAT tanks in PoP. Most are not hurting for work right now. While we all have trouble finding groups from time to time, it's really not so hard for a Paladin.

[Rthen]

"Necros can solo fairly well from what I can see

They cannot solo and are not heavily desired in exp groups...........Necromancers


Can they or can they not solo?
Make up your fucking mind. "


"Fairly well" compared to a mage. However that is about 1 yellow per 2 hour period in AA at level 61.

Meanwhile Druids and Wizards are quadding mobs and getting 5 AA points or more a day.




"I think you need to stop contradicting yourself."

Not really a contridiction. The best exp is grouped or kited by solo classes (Wizards and Druids). If your not a group desired class or a soloable class your screwed.

"And you also need to pull your head out of your ass."

You seem to have a lot of anger. Interesting.

"These same whines were made with every expansion. People pissed and moaned that Velious was going to be the death of EQ because it had no newbie content. They said all the casual players were going to quit because 'Verant' was catering to uber guilds and only adding high end content."

They may have but never before has the ability to progress even in experience been so restricted. Some classes are simply screwed.


"What the fuck?
Your only real complaint seems to be that you can't solo in POP and get the same XP as groups. "

The same? Excuse me but my soloing efforts net 1/2 a yellow of exp per 6 hour playing time. Thats AA exp. Thats insanly low and not worth my time. I was gettign 3 times that in FG at level 60.

I know I don't play a group loved class. I raid with my guild but in between the fuckign raids I would like some fucking AA exp. It shoudl not be my guilds responsibity to find me groups.

"Well tough luck. This is a multi player game that is based around grouping. "

Some classes have a hard time with groups.. if you don;t see tht then you need to extract your head from your ass.




"I have a level 61 necro as well as a level 65 mage. I leveled both myself from level 1

Who the fuck cares?"

Point being I don't just play 1 class.

If they were on seperate accounts and on the same server I would be groupign with myself.

[Theramor Laeroth]

I don't see PoP being the death of the casual gamer.

Yes, there are zones out there that they will probably not see, or loot they will probably not get. But PoP is actually a great expansion for casual gamers.

The Plane of Knowledge solves alot of transportation problems. Getting to good hunting spots is easier than ever. And that even means that death doesn't sting as much since if your can't find a cleric or necro for rezing, you can get back to your corpse alot easier and keep going.

My Main (53 Cleric) has had few problems getting into groups in Disease, Nightmare, and Innovation. I'm flagged for Beheamoth and Crypt of TT and just missed out on CoD because I had to go to work (plan to get that one as well soon). It is possible to work hard and get flagged for several other planes (with a few more levels, I should be able to start working on Trials in Justice).

That right there opens up several planes to hunt in and enough exp to be able to get to 65 and plenty of AA should I put forth the time and effort to do so....along with plenty of good places to hunt in Velious or Luclin should I wish to.

I've been playing EQ since March 99 and have enjoyed myself. Just like alot of the other old timers there I can tell stories of falling in the pits in Vox.......taking out Naggy in his lair (and the fights down)......HoT triumphs and several hour long CRs.......and so on.

PoP is not the end of the casual player, but is a big step forward. With the new levels and AA gained in PoP it makes much more of the rest of the older content available.

Only a great fool would see the end, because a great fool doesn't understand what he has to begin with.


T

[Lejina Bloodbath]

The problem is that without certain classes (Cleric, Slower, Snarer, Tank) groups cannot perform in PoP zones. There are a limited number of open slots (maybe 2) in each group that Mages, Wizards, Necromancers, SK's, and Pally's are competing for.

A SK can fit in to fill 4 jobs in a xp group:
-Tank
-Puller
-Snarer
-Damage Dealer (with PoP spells and pet, we actually deal our fair share of damage now).

We even give an extra kick of mana regen to our group.

So this class is far from only competing for the 2 remaining scrap spots in a group.

If you pass over the SKs as tanks for your xp groups, you are ignoring the single best xp group tank class in the current game, retard.

[Rthen]

"-Tank
-Puller
-Snarer"

Yes the SK is leaps and bounds above the Mage or Necro is group desirability. I think they fall short from a Cleric, Enchanter, Shaman, Monk, Warrior, or a Rogue however in the group desiribility area.


"-Damage Dealer (with PoP spells and pet, we actually deal our fair share of damage now). "

I did parsings, 70 - 80 DPS (for the moderatly equipped) is decent but its not going to compete with:

Rogues
Monks
Warriors
Wizards
Magicians

Yeah you will get a group before a mage or a necro.. or even a Wizard (but most wizards = kiting anyways).

[Liz]

Originally posted by Rthen
Magicians
Palidians
Necromancers
Beastlords
Shadowknights

If you play one fo the above classes you should be concerned. Your effective soloing days are over at level 65. You will not progress easily though AA skills unless your in a larger guild and can bring your own groups to the zones you can get exp in. Groups will not seek you out over core classes.

As it is now my AA exping is slow.. I can earn 2 a day if I get a group but I could go a week without getting a group. [/b]

Grats you tickled my pet peeve. Why is it people think the only thing to getting a group is turning /lfg on, sitting at zone in and /shouting xxxxx lfg? Ever thought of taking those other people that wander in lfg and making a group? It's n?ot hard, I promise. May not even be a perfect group but some of the dumbest looking groups I've been in tended to be the most ammusing.

Hell it even bothers me on raids when i see more than 1 or 2 ppl lfg, hello if you don't seem to get results from saying lfg try inviting people to make your own. Amazes me that the same people usually end up being group leaders b/c half the world can't hit the invite button until it turns to follow.

edit - one more thing... mages are fine in a group and they have cool toys but even in a large guild if you are annoying and slack you still won't get a group. Perhaps it is you that is the issue and not your class?

[Lejina Bloodbath]

I did parsings, 70 - 80 DPS (for the moderatly equipped) is decent but its not going to compete with:

Nice way to keep showing your blatant ignorance.
You forgot the pet and the spells. 70-80dps is also the damage we deal when fighting from the front, from the back (in a damage dealer role) its significantly higher.

Your parsed numbers are about half what a SK is actually doing in a xp group if he constantly cast a Spear+Zev+BoH and use a pet.


You remember me why the pick-up groups can be so annoying : often full of jackasses who think they have a clue when they do not.

[nadime]

Rthen I did some parses and you scored a FLAMING FUCKING IDIOT.

[Rthen]

"Grats you tickled my pet peeve. Why is it people think the only thing to getting a group is turning /lfg on, sitting at zone in and /shouting xxxxx lfg? Ever thought of taking those other people that wander in lfg and making a group?"

Most of those "other people" are running to a group inside the zone somewhere. I have made groups like this before but most nights (and this could be my server) there are only a handfull of people LFG. They are classes that would not usually group well alone. No healers, no Tanks, and no Crowd Control seems to ever be LFG in PoP tier 2+ zones on my server.

"It's not hard, I promise. May not even be a perfect group but some of the dumbest looking groups I've been in tended to be the most ammusing."

I agree. The problem is also that the other LFGs are looking for pre-established groups. Its fustrating.

"Hell it even bothers me on raids when i see more than 1 or 2 ppl lfg, hello if you don't seem to get results from saying lfg try inviting people to make your own."

It is the raid leaders responsibility to setup groups in a raid or outline the grouping rules.

"Amazes me that the same people usually end up being group leaders b/c half the world can't hit the invite button until it turns to follow."

Again.... in raids its the raid leaders responsibility to set this up. As a former Guild Leader one of my "pet peeves" were people that decided to make their own groups and ignore my instructions. People like that cause more problems then they help solve.

[Melrin_Specclaster]

Enchanters solo fine in PoP. Better than most. The classes that can't solo in pop are the same damn classes that couldnt in Luclin, why the bitch now?

Druids solo better than necromancers. Somebody that is good at their class always solo's better than somebody that sucks. Ok, necro's may not be able to quad kite, but quad kiting has always been good for people that can pull it off.

[miir]

Yes the SK is leaps and bounds above the Mage or Necro is group desirability. I think they fall short from a Cleric, Enchanter, Shaman, Monk, Warrior, or a Rogue however in the group desiribility area.

The only 2 classes that are absolutely necessary in XP/AA groups are Clerics and Enchanters. Every other spot can be filled with a number of other classes. Hell even clerics can be replaced by a Druid or Shaman is some cases.




I did parsings, 70 - 80 DPS (for the moderatly equipped) is decent but its not going to compete with Rogues, Monks, Warriors, Wizards, Magicians

Do you think the "casual gamer" is parsing DPS for every class? Casual gamers are fine in POP with a Tank, Slower and Cleric. The other 3 spots can be filled with whoever.

You seem to be getting power and casual gamers jumbled up.
Casual games don't need "The Ideal Group for XP grinds.

While a SK may not do competitive DPS when comapred to the classes you mentioned, he will make a bloody better tank/puller than any of the classes you mentioned.





You're scaping the bottom of the barrel in your arguments.

Not everyone cares about soloing, max DPS, the ideal group makeup, the best class to fill the last spot or getting max XP per hour.


Hopefully POP will be the death of the 'whiney bitch' gamer.

[Rthen]

I remember seeing Warriors soloing in FG back in SoL.. mages could get 1 AA a day just soloing in FG.. I know because I have.

Fast forward to the present. Level 65 mages are either at a raid or offline on my server since LFG for 3 hours or so for 1 or 2 hours of groupage sucks.

And Warriors? They don't solo at 65 for experience.

[Liz]

Originally posted by Rthen
It is the raid leaders responsibility to setup groups in a raid or outline the grouping rules.

Again.... in raids its the raid leaders responsibility to set this up. As a former Guild Leader one of my "pet peeves" were people that decided to make their own groups and ignore my instructions. People like that cause more problems then they help solve.

m'kay I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that your raids take about 2-5 hours to start quickly followed by a wipe on the first pull?

[miir]

So delevel, go back to FG, get your AAs and kindly shut the fuck up.