[WoW] Pardo admits arenas are a huge fuckup, probably should never have been added.

[Mist]

Originally Posted by Kreugen

But everyone hasn't been a winner since they implemented rating requirements forever go.

His post was about BGs/Wintergrasp. And the WOTLK Arena rating system basically allows anyone to get to 1800 if they grind long enough. It's not even remotely zero sum.

[EmiliaEQ]

Originally Posted by Mist

And that will be "Perfect Balance" how? That's just a nerf to Warriors. Nerfing Warriors won't magically make WoW pvp fun. This is just another route to useless bandaid solutions. Player perceptions of balance have to change, not the game.

I'm still wondering if you are just trolling or just too thick to understand.
Having "dual rules" will give the balance team the possibility to tweak spells accordingly without influencing the "other side"of the game.

For example devs conclude "MS Warriors do not do enough DPS in PvE".
Lets add 50% dmg to MS... Great now MS warriors are overpowered in PvP.

With a dual ruleset, "lets add 50% dmg to MS_vs_NPC" will "fix" the PVE DPS issue.
With Zero effect on the PvP world.


I never talked about "fun" (because MMO PvP is just retarded).
Not having to think "how will this affect PvE" and "how will this affect PvP" will make the game a lot simpler to balance.

When i played, MS warriors were almost useless for PvE raiding. Why ? lack of damage.
Well with a dual ruleset adding 50% dmg to MS_vs_NPC would make them as desirable as fury warriors in raids.
Without breaking the game.

This would work even better on CC (a 30 sec PvE mez, transformed into a 0.1 sec PvP stun)

[Zaphid]

No, his point is that balance cannot be achieved under current skills and gear progression, because you have way too many things that matter and that you can't control. People have different gear, use different UIs to control 30+ abilities their character has while the game is essentially binary except LoS aka pole humping. You can describe your average arena match with combat log.

[Nal]

Well, I think his overall point is that the problem with PvP isn't even the poor balance. The much bigger problem is that the PvP experience itself isn't fun.

It goes back to the fact that few people would PvP without the rewards. The reward of playing should be the fun you have playing. The dangling loot carrot that keeps people playing is a crutch they are leaning on to avoid having to do the real work of making a fun PvP experience. And really, the loot in PvP isn't even so much a reward as it is an implied threat -- get this loot or be miserable when other people stomp you because their gear is better than yours.

I'm probably totally off base, but shouldn't PvP cater to the people that have no use for treadmills? It's like they took the whole PvE treadmill design and created a PvP system based off of it.

[Sharmai]

There's always been something about MMO PvP that has annoyed the heck out of me. I think it may be because I prefer FPS style games at heart but I'm not sure. I feel like in WoW I am always moving to slow and always waiting on cooldowns for something or the other. Maybe its casting timers or being unable to do so many things if I am moving at the same time and what I can do when I am moving is so amazingly ineffective as to be worthless.

[Ronne]

Originally Posted by Nal

Well, I think his overall point is that the problem with PvP isn't even the poor balance.

The overall problem with PVP is that it affecting PVE balance. The vast, vast majority of us who PVE and rarely even look at PVP outside of a WG get kind of annoyed when seemingly every patch something in your class changes due to how it works in an arena.

[Mist]

Originally Posted by EmiliaEQ

I never talked about "fun" (because MMO PvP is just retarded).
Not having to think "how will this affect PvE" and "how will this affect PvP" will make the game a lot simpler to balance.

When i played, MS warriors were almost useless for PvE raiding. Why ? lack of damage.
Well with a dual ruleset adding 50% dmg to MS_vs_NPC would make them as desirable as fury warriors in raids.
Without breaking the game.

This would work even better on CC (a 30 sec PvE mez, transformed into a 0.1 sec PvP stun)

That still just sounds like the wanton nerfing of class defining abilities in PvP. Once you open up that second ruleset, it'll just be a giant circle jerk of nerfs on Mortal Strike, Cyclone, Divine Shield, Lifebloom, Penance, Kidney Shot, Chaos Bolt, and whatever else people are whining about that month, until all the classes are watered down in PvP, no one can actually kill each other, and matches take 40 minutes again.

In order to have a class-based PvP game, it's somewhat essential for each class to have some abilities that are class defining and difficult to counter. Someone has to inevitably lose every match, and odds are, some ability that seems "mean" and "unfair" is going to be what did you in.

[xmod2]

Originally Posted by Mist

That still just sounds like the wanton nerfing of class defining abilities in PvP. Once you open up that second ruleset, it'll just be a giant circle jerk of nerfs on Mortal Strike, Cyclone, Divine Shield, Lifebloom, Penance, Kidney Shot, Chaos Bolt, and whatever else people are whining about that month, until all the classes are watered down in PvP, no one can actually kill each other, and matches take 40 minutes again.

So the only reason they should stay is because changing them would screw with PvE too much? If they are going to be nerfed, then they are going to be nerfed. Tying them to PvE to try and keep them around and defined is the kind of bullshit people want to see gone.

If they are unattached from PvE and can't survive on their own, then who gives a shit. Admittedly, the only reason I would like to see a divide is because I'd prefer to be able to raid and not have to think about how the people bitching on the arena boards are going to affect my raid comps.

Since people only arena for the gear, I wonder how arena points from BGs will play out?

[kaid]

Originally Posted by Mist

That still just sounds like the wanton nerfing of class defining abilities in PvP. Once you open up that second ruleset, it'll just be a giant circle jerk of nerfs on Mortal Strike, Cyclone, Divine Shield, Lifebloom, Penance, Kidney Shot, Chaos Bolt, and whatever else people are whining about that month, until all the classes are watered down in PvP, no one can actually kill each other, and matches take 40 minutes again.

In order to have a class-based PvP game, it's somewhat essential for each class to have some abilities that are class defining and difficult to counter. Someone has to inevitably lose every match, and odds are, some ability that seems "mean" and "unfair" is going to be what did you in.

Unfortunately the only way to really have a good chance at balancing pvp is to separate pve and pvp stats. Powers that are fine and fun to use on a boss with 20 million hp could be totally unbalanced vs a mage with 20k hp.

Its possible it could lead to the pvp stuff being watered down but if you unhitch them from each other at least you don't have the problem of pve changes screwing pvp or visa versa.

Balancing for arenas without unhitching the pve/pvp stats is insane. Arenas work completely different than a pve environment. What would be totally balanced and fun for pve can completly break classes in arenas. We are now starting to see some of the unhitching of pvp and pve already with the dropping some of the longer cool down powers to shorter cooldowns but still disallowed in the arena.

If they choose not to fully separate pvp vs pve stats then accept arenas will always be completly broken class balance wise.

[Spontaneous Cumbustion]

How hard is it to understand?

THEY NERF ANYWAY. THEY NERF ALL OVERPOWERED PVP ABILITIES.

Problem is, THEY NERF THEIR USE IN PVE TOO.

So if you separate, YOU CAN NERF THE PVP PART OF THE ABILITY WITHOUT NERFING THE PVE PART.

Moral of this is, WE WANT A WAY FOR PVP TO STOP FUCKING INTRUDING ON PVE, KEEP IT SEPARATE.

And yes, THIS CAN BE DONE IN WOW AS HAS BEEN POINTED OUT NUMEROUS TIMES.

No it may not fucking balance PvP, but it WILL balance PvE because we won't be subject to stupid fucking PvP nerfs.

I mean shit, just look at Paladins, EVERY goddamn patch that class gets changed due to PvP and it impedes on their PvE.

[Dassem]

The real moral of the story? Paladins are gay, the class should be deleted and paladin players should be castrated (not that they have any balls to start with). Then everyone* would be happy.

*except the ex-paladins now turned eunuch.

[spronk]

you know what would be cool, if they changed wow so that every ability just does some random pretty graphic effect, and you have a 1/1000th chance of procing an epic item and a 1/100,000th chance of procing a legendary item. Your chances go up more if you are grouped with other people who are also spamming buttons, the more people who spam faster the better the odds. Sometimes the random ability will kill someone or turn them into a female dwarf.

Raids would consist of hundreds of people sitting in dalaran just mashing buttons for hours on end watching tons of explosions and fireworks and multi-shaped AOEs (NOT JUST CIRCLES AMIRITE) on their screen, like a giant gay orgy of asperger ADD kids with carpal tunnel. FUCK YEA

[Aaubert]

Originally Posted by Spontaneous Cumbustion

How hard is it to understand?

THEY NERF ANYWAY. THEY NERF ALL OVERPOWERED PVP ABILITIES.

Problem is, THEY NERF THEIR USE IN PVE TOO.

So if you separate, YOU CAN NERF THE PVP PART OF THE ABILITY WITHOUT NERFING THE PVE PART.

Moral of this is, WE WANT A WAY FOR PVP TO STOP FUCKING INTRUDING ON PVE, KEEP IT SEPARATE.

And yes, THIS CAN BE DONE IN WOW AS HAS BEEN POINTED OUT NUMEROUS TIMES.

No it may not fucking balance PvP, but it WILL balance PvE because we won't be subject to stupid fucking PvP nerfs.

I mean shit, just look at Paladins, EVERY goddamn patch that class gets changed due to PvP and it impedes on their PvE.

fucking thank you.

Admins, can we implement and instant-ban for anyone who talks about "why a 2rule system can't be implemented."

ITS FUCKING ALREADY IN THE GAME. IT HAS BEEN FOR YEARS. RESILIENCE IS A FUCKING 2RULE SYSTEM. STUNS. CC. SPELLS OVER 10(8LOL) MINUTES.

[Venjenz]

Trying to balance PVP in a class based game while giving each class some sense of uniqueness is impossible. The best PVP is where everyone is on relatively equal footing, all the way down to everyone having ranged or everyone being melee. The simplest way to do arenas is make them work like the boss fight in The Oculus or something similar. You enter the arena, you and your team pick your dragons, your opponents pick theirs, and 3...2...1....Fight!

Most of the battleground imbalances can be dealt with similar to arenas. Siege engines, defense and vehicles. Remove class advanatges/disadvantages by forcing folks into offense/defense modes you predesignate for that environment.

Does this mean the Uber 2H Weapon of Rectal Pwnage you just looted off top_boss_mob_01 cannot be employed in the Arena? You bet, but using that weapon of doom isn't a measure of skill anyway, just a gear check against the opponent's AC, or really nothing more than an epeen flex. In the arena, everyone being the same means you actually have to have some skill, assuming relatively equal ping rates.

If they did arenas/battlegrounds like that, then I actually wouldn't mind the awards as much, since they'd be based on actual skill, not gear checks.

This way you can leave world PVP and the entire PVE thing alone. Let the classes be unbalanced in regards to 1 v 1, 2 v 2 content. Who fucking cares? I have no clue which class is currently PVP godmode, but in world PVP, you can always find a way to counter a punch including bringing more friends.PVE can stay gloriously unbalanced so different classes can keep those things that make them fun, and the e-sports nonsense of arenas and battlegrounds can remain competitive for those who want to do that. World PVP can still be open ended, and the players can create their own balance out there in the wild.

[Bixxby]

Your argument falls flat. Equally geared people are already a skill and teamwork check. It's MMO pvp not an FPS. World pvp is completely dead and there is no reason to even talk about it in current day WoW, because it will be gone in cataclysm too.