38 Studios Copernicus, Mercury and other stuff

[Tolanin]

Wait, what was wrong with the note collection quest? I liked that quest, and it gave an uber reward for the level until they nerfed it. Part of the reason I don't play wow anymore is because some of those things they stopped doing were things that made the game more fun for me.

[Bongk]

well for me, I skipped that quest every time because it took more inventory space that I had to spare. I was not about to start deleting valuable items and mats to finish 1 quest.

If they had made the pages go right into a book or something sure, that is what killed the quest for me.

[Ngruk]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

He also designed the stranglethorn note collection whatever it was called quest.

Who gives a shit. Unlike about 95% of the dipshits in this industry, Kaplan actually learns from his mistakes. Much less admits to them.

If that was Funcom, SOE, EA, Mythic, Turbine; it would have never been responded to or brought up, or they would have said according to their market polls which they never take, the main reason for leaving the game was because real life interfered

Hey I'm calling out the elephant now in the room, and offering a thank you.

Since Ut's rejoined the thread he's been pretty f'in good about not getting personal, and I'll offer my thanks for that.

Every player that can get involved here that can add something to any discussion is a plus, whether that offering is for or against me, or 38, I don't care. Yes I'd love to have everyone worshiping at the 38 Altar, but we haven't done dick yet.

I get the frustration with lack of info and understand people being pissed. I'm 100% cool with being ripped about things, but I cannot tolerate the personal stuff, which I don't think has a place here (in this thread) anyway.

So thanks Ut, it's appreciated from my end.

[Locithon]

[Ninen]

They admitted that they felt the quest took up "too much" inventory for your average player, and thus was a bad quest.

As for personal preference over trash pulls (we whine if there's trash, and then we whine when the instance is 5 bosses in 5 rooms, there's no winning here) and pali/sham disparity (good concept, but no company has succeeded in practice)... to each their own.

Between the massive ret'con's and the space goats, Metzen lost all my goodwill; and I'm not even a Warcraft'ophile. That shit's just bad writing.

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

So thanks Ut, it's appreciated from my end.

No Problem.

Between the massive ret'con's and the space goats, Metzen lost all my goodwill; and I'm not even a Warcraft'ophile. That shit's just bad writing.

You have to wonder though just how long is long enough. Pretty soon you are never going to make everyone happy, and honestly, where else can this story go now? We have seen Demons, Undead, a Lich King, Humans Vs Orcs, Alliance Vs. Horde, Alliance/Horde Vs Lich King... Here we have over 18 years of lore.

Do it long enough and the fanboys will rip pieces into everything and anything you come out with. Hell, look at RA Salvatore and the gnashing that guy gets on a regular basis, while David Eddings (RIP) and Sparhawk & Company comprised of 6 books, period.

Air it out long enough and it starts to become like Days of our Lives. I watched that show once when I was 14 and sick home from school to find some hot chick flying over the covers being possessed by the devil. Turn it on 8 years later while bored at college and they are still talking about that. Suffice it to say I think about 6 important things have happened in the last 21 years.

Same thing can be said about stories in MMORPG's. Sooner or later it's just going to get ridiculous and cliche, no matter how hard you try and steer it away from that. That doesn't mean it's Metzen's fault.

[Dumar]

Originally Posted by Ninen

Between the massive ret'con's and the space goats, Metzen lost all my goodwill; and I'm not even a Warcraft'ophile. That shit's just bad writing.

it's awful writing and lore. i mean laughably bad means that i would at least laugh at it right? it's not even funny.

nobody cares though because 1: nobody reads it and 2: it makes money.

[Ngruk]

An even harder question to answer on forums, because I think what we "THINK" works and is cool, is far less of both in game.

If you could lay out your ideal 'story telling vehicle' as a player, how would a game best convey story to you, what would that be?

A) Cut scenes
B) Cinematics
C) Quest text dialogue
D) Other?
E) F it, I don't care about your story....

Cinematics, cut scenes are the reason I stopped playing FF 10 minutes after I started. The first 10 minutes was 9:30 of cut scenes, not my bag man.

But, there HAS to be a cooler more immersive way to tell you a kick ass story than what's been done right?

My answer is A-D, a lot of one, some of another, some of another, a little of the other.

For me text doesn't work beyond the short quips and smaller stuff, B doesn't work beyond the rare cut scenes since I want really cool epic meaning to them when I see them, and I think you sprinkle A around enough to make them matter...

D is the wild card. What else is there, what combo, what hasn't been done? What would you most like to see that you haven't yet?

[maskedmelon]

I do not play WoW, but following the discussion here, a good story needs an end, a goal per se. Whether the writer knows exactly what is going to happen or not, they need to have an idea of where it is going to bring cohesion to the whole telling and give it meaning. MMO developers struggle with this because even if there is a general theme to the game at launch, or for each specific expansion, if they (the developers) do not have a final destination in mind, the story cannot do anything except meander.

[Twobit Whore]

I love well done cut scenes and cinematics. But when you watch more than play, that can be bad. You need a healthy mix.. and they need to be interactive as much as possible. Look at Mass Effect, very cinematic experience, even when playing and choosing dialog. It also has text that you can read, info from computers, scanning planets or just finding shit.

There really is no other, except the interaction factor.

Either you read shit or you watch shit and listen to shit. How you present it and integrate it to the gaming experience while giving players some sort of link to it (whether it be via subtle variations or direct and meaningful control) is what is crucial.

[MagicNumbers]

This might sound stupid but I liked how Starcraft had a couple of portrait squares under the game screen where NPC characters would pop up and speak, moving the story along all while I continued playing.

I realize that its not from an MMO but I liked it.

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

There really is no other, except the interaction factor.

Either you read shit or you watch shit and listen to shit.

How about doing shit? You seem to touch on that in the rest of your discussion, but I think this really could constitute a significant portion of Curt's "Other" Item 4. The question is: how do you tell a story through players actions? Scripted events is one way. I am not sure what else there is though. Perhaps I have just regurgitated your intent?

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

D is the wild card. What else is there, what combo, what hasn't been done? What would you most like to see that you haven't yet?

Telling the story through gameplay itself. NPC's that direct people what they need with subtle clues and hints. I'll get very cliche here so sorry in advance:

Random NPC: "If I only had that sword back, the wonders I could do with it. I'll never forget the time... (Mini cut scene (And I mean 20-30 secs max) showing the NPC in it's younger days fighting in an area and getting it's sword taken by an NPC named "Goliath". Showing enough in the cut scene and through verbal cues that you know where to go. Cut scene ends.

Random NPC: "Sigh... Oh I wish I just had it in my hands again"

This quest would now get entered in your log book. You can do it anytime you like. Which will probably be soon because you actually experience what happens when you turn in the Sword you find from Goliath, rather than turning it in, skipping the quest text, and getting whatever reward you got and seeing no reaction.

Throw in phasing after a certain subset of quests are complete to let the player say, "Holy shit I just impacted the world with these quests" and tree them into other's, and you have a hell of a story progression going in which people actually care about because no matter how many people are doing it, you can tailor it straight to them, phasing on their account/client only.

You would have to be careful to only phase key portions of end level gap content (meaning such and such area is for levels 11-19) and aim the content to end at level 19, phase it, and use that phasing again in later content, or chain it even higher down the leveling path to tie in some really cool stories.

Not all of it has to be cut scenes. Some can just be random emote movements like what WoW did in Vanilla and beyond where you see Quests play out where they give a potion to a locked up alliance and they die off or poof into some creature. Than phase that small portion out instead of letting the player see it re-populate again.

Lots of quest tree options as well. Level 15 quests done will impact reputation levels in level 50 areas (The NPC you gave the sword back to has an uncle and his uncle heard about your story - and he has a new mission complete with a higher end story) Mark the important quest characters so people know that it will involve a quest tree down the line and will be important to do, or you won't be able to see what else happens in the same line down the lifetime of the game.

[Dumar]

just say no to phasing. like drugs, it may make you feel good now, but you'll crash and burn later. trust me, trust us.

[Erumaron]

Originally Posted by Dumar

just say no to phasing. like drugs, it may make you feel good now, but you'll crash and burn later. trust me, trust us.

Don't listen to Dumar.