Next Everquest installment: Everquest "Next".

[Bongk]

Originally Posted by bobyab

I have said it before, but the fundamental design decisions they made are pretty brilliant in that they could function the same with either a 100k or a 10 million player base. The player’s game experience largely remains the same no matter the population size. EQ's fun-factor scales directly with the server population...

You kind of contradict yourself with this. Population size and Server Population are two completely different things and mean different things. EQ could have handled 10 million subs also.

So either you are saying EQ is guilty of not doing server merges more often in a very roundabout way without actually saying it, and you would be correct.

Or you are trying to claim that playing on a low pop server and a high pop server afford the same play experience in WoW, and you would be dead wrong.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Originally Posted by Lenaldo

Sadly my favorite part about sitting around and camping spawns was that I could get so much accomplished IRL while still playing.

I got pretty good at doing my laundry in 5 minute spurts.

Though if you really want, find a couple like minded people and level up that way. Group up, go into a dungeon, sit at the zone in and designate one guy the puller. Nothing leashes in most dungeons. Every 40 minutes or so when you've pulled everything or gotten as far as your puller can survive zone out, reset, zone back in. Respawn.

Side benefit is you even get a shitton of time to chat during the downtime between pulls or go do your dishes or whatever. It'll even take nearly as long as it did to reach max level in EQ so you can feel like the journey meant something!

The problem is finding people who even want to do shit like that anymore. Given the choice between being actively engaged or sit on their ass in one spot for hours on end most people will take doing something.

Anyways...

Bobyab could have meant that as population size on each individual server gets higher in WoW you have more options for pug raids and the AH is better stocked usually and that's usually about it. In EQ a higher pop meant more competition for spawns which while made it interesting for the guilds that won and fondly remember racing, drove other customers away.

But yeah, the 100,000 vs. 10 million thing made no sense. EQ grew quite easily from the 50k to 500k they peaked at or whatever. A ridiculously huge barrier to entry was probably their biggest fault, not that they couldn't plop in new servers as population rose.

[Twobit Whore]

I imagine he meant the fact that on a low pop WoW server you can still fucking kill shit, instead of LFG for 8 hours. There's levelling, questing, dailies, tradeskills and general farming you can do at the very least if you don't/can't raid.

So yeah, having 1k people or 10k people on your server doesn't change your ability to login and do something in under 30 minutes or for 3 hours.

[Xaen]

I just miss trains.

If some jackass can't wipe out 50 people standing around afk somewhere by training a dragon over their face, the game sucks.

[Rayne]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

The problem is finding people who even want to do shit like that anymore. Given the choice between being actively engaged or sit on their ass in one spot for hours on end most people will take doing something.

While true, I don't really see why every game must now follow the WoW method of near light-speed gratification. People can attribute thier fondness of EQ to whatever they like, and chances are that there will be plenty of mmo gamers that will agree with many of them. And i'd be willing to bet that a relatively good number of mmo gamers would go for a slower paced game along the EQ timeframe. I'd also be willing to bet that a majority of them would be both former EQ players, as well as disgruntled WoW raiders who mostly only log in to raid.

The point is, investors need to stop focusing on the WoW crown, and allow some breathing room for innovation and compelling content. If I want to play a good, fast-paced, easy entry mmo, I have WoW and almost any game since for 6-12 hours a month. But for something more depthful, that really challenges my mind, and to consume the time when i'm not raiding, it'd be nice to have something new to play, with some of the aspects of the pre-WoW games that we often reminisce about.

The "if it doesn't draw in millions, it fails" mentality needs to be done away with so the genre can start moving forward again.

[bobyab]

Originally Posted by Bongk

You kind of contradict yourself with this. Population size and Server Population are two completely different things and mean different things. EQ could have handled 10 million subs also.

So either you are saying EQ is guilty of not doing server merges more often in a very roundabout way without actually saying it, and you would be correct.

Or you are trying to claim that playing on a low pop server and a high pop server afford the same play experience in WoW, and you would be dead wrong.

The only thing that was ever affected by playing on a low and a high population server in WoW was the queue times and instance server lag.

1. Leveling Progression: 99% of the leveling game can be solo... don't need other people nor are they a detriment to your progress.

2. Guild Progression: Guilds, which could be relatively small and still successful, could progress at their own pace... don't need other guilds nor are they going to cock-block your progress.

3. PVP Progression: Servers merge into the battlegroups, so once again, who cares about my servers population.

I have played on low & high pop servers and it is the same game. In EQ, if you go to min or max population extreme, the results were burnout because you are not going to be able to experience the game's content either way. The server merges/splits were far too long in coming and the ecomony usually got pretty broken in the aftermath.

WoW is still far from a perfect game. The most common reason for quitting WoW has to be because the game is boring. The biggest reason for quitting EQ was because you lost your job, getting divorced, failed out of school, or were getting evicted from your apartment because you played EQ 24/7. Pick your poison.

[Bongk]

I can already tell you the responses you are going to get.

"You and your 20 friends can play that game"

"people have spoken with their wallets and the wow-style wins"

And this is totally wrong. If everyone wants only wow-style gameplay now. Why are all the games copying wow doing the same as games that copy EQ?

Shouldn't it be Runes of Magic setting F2P milestones and not Free Realms? I mean come on RoM is a complete wow copy everyone has to love it right?

That arguement is as dumb as the people who think a game needs to get 10 million players or its a flop. I mean why is Wendy's still open for business? They are a total flop because McDonalds dwarfs their revenue.

McQuaid posted on his blog that Vanguard (one of the most expensive MMOG ever made) with 500k sustained players would have been a huge success. And yet everyone here would have been calling it a flop...

[Twobit Whore]

I was one of VG's biggest detractors and I certainly wouldn't have called 500k a flop. I honestly think that's a best case scenario for a poop-socking title.

[Bongk]

Originally Posted by bobyab

The only thing that was ever affected by playing on a low and a high population server in WoW was the queue times and instance server lag.

As someone who p[layed one a low pop server bullshit, unless you never feeling like seeing any instances or doing anything but soling your whole life and if that is the case, buy a console you will be happier.

Originally Posted by bobyab

1. Leveling Progression: 99% of the leveling game can be solo... don't need other people nor are they a detriment to your progress.

Once again if all you desire to do is runs quests solo, have at it, that is not what WoW was made for. There is a reason they made instances, really there is.

Originally Posted by bobyab

2. Guild Progression: Guilds, which could be relatively small and still successful, could progress at their own pace... don't need other guilds nor are they going to cock-block your progress.

And hopefully the one guild getting shit done on your back water server needs your class or you may as well pack up and go home, eh? But hey the play experience is the same on every server!

Originally Posted by bobyab

I have played on low & high pop servers and it is the same game.

You are either a liar or an anti-social moron, take your pick. The ability to do instances and find guilds on low pop servers is DRAMATICALLY reduced as players are the only barrier to doing these things since they are instanced. Less players = less opportunity, common sense and math.

Originally Posted by bobyab

In EQ, if you go to min or max population extreme, the results were burnout because you are not going to be able to experience the game's content either way. The server merges/splits were far too long in coming and the ecomony usually got pretty broken in the aftermath.

who gives a fuck about the economy when everything worth a shit is no-drop. You are correct about them being to slow to merge server though, but wow is actually even worse at this than EQ. The only solution in wow is paid server move, which EQ also offered.

Originally Posted by bobyab

WoW is still far from a perfect game. The most common reason for quitting WoW has to be because the game is boring. The biggest reason for quitting EQ was because you lost your job, getting divorced, failed out of school, or were getting evicted from your apartment because you played EQ 24/7. Pick your poison.

Finally we agree on something. But just because a game is designed around grouping does NOT mean it has to be played 24/7 to stay competitive, those are two completely separate issues.

[Dumar]

money isn't what's at issue. if that's part of the issue, the mcdonald's is the best restaurant in the world. nobody cares about money except the suits and the people who like mcdonald's, and if you aren't an idiot you ignore both.

the best game designers are able to look into the future. they are able to look into the future and design open-ended game mechanics and the systems that allow player freedom within those mechanics. what occurs then is emergent and unintended gameplay done by the player. this is great game design, whether it's for an mmo, console, or board game. what you don't do is overdesign everything and force the player into a box: discrete goals, measured everything, and no room for creativity or freedom whatsoever. this is a happy meal at the proverbial mcdonald's.

eq designers were good at what they did. it doesn't matter if the emergent gameplay was intended or no. the majority of all success in life happens by accident, and here is no different. but the difference is you have to take a chance, a chance by putting in systems or mechanics that allow the gameplay that brings about that creativity and freedom. wow has bad designers because you see none of that anywhere ever. all you see is a discrete little box: a happy meal.

[Bongk]

It makes me feel dirty when Dumar stops in and agrees with me. /sigh, maybe I have to rethink my position.

[vynde]

Originally Posted by Dumar

eq designers were good at what they did. it doesn't matter if the emergent gameplay was intended or no. the majority of all success in life happens by accident, and here is no different. but the difference is you have to take a chance, a chance by putting in systems or mechanics that allow the gameplay that brings about that creativity and freedom. wow has bad designers because you see none of that anywhere ever. all you see is a discrete little box: a happy meal.

I have to halfheartedly agree. EQ programmers were pretty good since they did things in the game that even the later programmers couldn't figure out (collision for one thing, especially with the boats). BUT i don't think eq designers were good at what they did, unless if you call stubborn arrogance good. They basically didn't want to change anything in the game because of that.

And didn't they try to label kiting as exploiting game mechanics when that emerged?

[Twobit Whore]

They even tried to implement anti-kiting code at one point. If a monster was chasing you it took like 50% less damage from your dots.

[Zehn - Vhex]

They tried twice. The DoT nerf as well as later when they changed how mobs ran when on low health which caused mobs that were being kited to warp to spawn. Luckily we still had flameplay at that point and the sheer amount of "fuck you I'm quitting if this stays this way" posts convinced them to undo it.

There were a handful of other 'semi' nerfs. Sometimes a mob that didn't previously summon suddenly would or the xp modifier in some zones got nerfed now and then.

[Laerazi]

Just got the EQ 10th Anniversary Book... can't put it down. Would definitely recommend it to any of you who played the game for a significant amount of time and enjoy the universe, or just anyone interested in the development of a historical MMO for it's time. While it's not as in-depth as I'd want (that would require encyclopedias), it paints a great history and has great anecdotes from devs, as well as awesome concept art.