Scott Hartsman/Gallenite is a free agent

[Chanur]

I don't really care for it, but its better than it was since they consolidated some of the abilities.

[Genjiro]

Originally Posted by Gecko

Maybe it could be because of the point made over and over that EQ2 is still a low performing title, like War?

There may be a lot of community love for Hartsman, but the truth is in the dollars and sense from his previous titles do not put him in the elite dev category, or any better than any other designer who has made a niche game. Perhaps worse, given the hype and cash poured into EQ2.

See, I dont see how you can even say that. Forget Scott for a minute. So.... you have gone over their operating costs and determined "low performing" and know how much "cash" was poured into EQ2? How can you or anyone here who is not a company insider (and one with access to that kind of information) make that sort of offhand statement? Maybe you are right, but I'm curious how you are qualified to make that statement....because that takes some pretty giant balls to assume anything.

Maybe they turn over quite a decent profit and are just fine with how much they are bringing in and didn't want to risk/gamble that away. You don't need to be Rob Pardo swimming in money like Scrooge McDuck to have a successful product, even a "niche" game (fuck I hate that term too) like EQ2 could be bringing in far more than they needed to provide for their employees and keep advancing the product.

Also, did you or Zehn fucking play EQ2 at all through the 1st expansion? Majdul and the rest of the shit that had no continuity at ALL with the original EQ lore was terrible and Scott and those guys "added" the content that nearly everyone wanted from launch. Our old stomping grounds.....Unrest, Kelethin, well lets just say Faydwer, all of Kunark...you know, the places all of us at launch wanted to know what happened to after the Shattering which was the basis of their story which they just decided to leave out.

People were wearing giant grins like Bob from those Enzyte male enhancement commercials after EoF and Kunark were announced. That to me is "adding" content people wanted, not the Aladdin city in the clouds + random Egyptian shit we got in DoF that had practically no tie ins with what any of us remember from EQ1 (aside from Terrorantula and SGs).

[Gecko]

Originally Posted by Dis

I guess I need more detail. He was techinical director of EQ, and as someone mentioned made the LFG interface, as well as allowing users to customize their interface (however limited). I am not familiar with his other responsibilities in the game.

And he eventually was made lead dev for EQ2 correct, but after the game was already headed downhill. How much responsibility can he take for the mess that is EQ2?

There are others who are better versed in his accomplishments. He was pretty much an SOE worker who went to a startup that hasn't released anything.

I know he worked on EQ, then became the lead dev for EQ2. My opinions are pretty much based on those projects.

I think EQ went downhill post Kunark, which is when he worked there.

I think he inherited a bad project in EQ2, and I believe EQ2 did some good things while he was there, but in my opinion the game remained an unfun, mediocre game.

Also, as a point of comparision, who do you consider to be an elite dev. Are we talking strictly MMO devs, or other devs outside of the MMO genre?

Brad Mcquaid.

I kid! That's a good question. I think Elite Dev isn't based on genre, though. I personally tend to think of studio's that put on good games, instead of people. I think it's a combination of leadership, game design, coding, and QA. Perhaps Hartsman is top tier, but worked with a group of poor coders, QA, and other designers. regardless, I don't consider SOE an elite shop, and his work was mostly there.

He primarily promotes himself as a designer, producer, and director. I almost wouldn't even categorize him as a developer, but more a suit. This may be why he can't find work, as there are plenty of suits out there with padded resumes with mediocre financial results looking for gainful employment.

p.s. Yes, Genjiro. I've played a lot of EQ2. Too much considering my opinion of the game. On paper it's a great game. Discussing all EQ2s flaws and issues is a thread unto itself, though.

Given they are announcing Free Realms sub numbers every 15 minutes, I'd wager they'd do the same if EQ2 were performing better. I don't have any proof since they hide those, but my opinion is their numbers are much lower than the top 3 MMOs.

[Cuppycake]

Originally Posted by Gecko

This is the simple truth.

Maybe I missed something, but I personally never got all the Hartsman love. EQ2 remains a crappy niche MMO.

Don't be an idiot. Even 200k subscribers doesn't make you niche.

[khalid]

Originally Posted by Vorph

I never really understood the hate for EQ2's combat system. Is it just because you have lots of buttons as a melee? I only ever played Defiler + various casters and I thought the combat was fine.

On my Bruiser I had 4 hotbars full of abilities and all of them I would use when their cooldown was up. It was whackamole with abilities. No decisions had to be made, it was just hit everything when the cooldown was up, and I'd never run out of mana. Many of the abilities were basically just copies of each other.

It seemed like instead of giving you one ability on a 3 second cooldown, they would give you 6 abilities, each on a 18 second cooldown. Hotkeying everything was impossible.

[Kuro]

So many buttons, and yet the only button that could truly help a monk or bruiser was Delete...

Every time they announced attempts to fix the combat system, 90% of the "vocal" forum populace shrieked NGE and bewailed the doom of EQ2 until the changes were pulled

[Lyrical]

Originally Posted by Cuppycake

Don't be an idiot. Even 200k subscribers doesn't make you niche.

When you are such a small percentage of the total martket, this is the definition of niche.

[Xenrauk]

Originally Posted by Gecko

I think EQ went downhill post Kunark, which is when he worked there.

You might want to edit and say after Velious, otherwise I don't think we can take you seriously.

[dorfeater]

Originally Posted by Lyrical

When you are such a small percentage of the total martket, this is the definition of niche.

So.. with that logic, what wouldn't be niche? I don't know of any other MMO's besides WoW stable at 1mil+.. maybe FFXI but last I heard it was near 500k.

If you don't include WoW, the definition of niche MMO changes.

[Gecko]

Originally Posted by dorfeater

So.. with that logic, what wouldn't be niche? I don't know of any other MMO's besides WoW stable at 1mil+.. maybe FFXI but last I heard it was near 500k.

If you don't include WoW, the definition of niche MMO changes.

There are a dozens of Operating Systems, and then there's Windows. Are the tiny OS's floating around not niche?

You might want to edit and say after Velious, otherwise I don't think we can take you seriously.

Oops.

Yeah, he started working on EQ during Shadows of Luclin (Dec 2001).

I think the game wasn't as much fun or nearly as good past Velious.

[Cuppycake]

Originally Posted by Gecko

There are a dozens of Operating Systems, and then there's Windows. Are the tiny OS's floating around not niche?

Are Macs niche?

If you're using niche to be a negative term to show how tiny the subscriber amount is for EQ2, then I'll disagree with you.

If you're calling every MMO under a million subscribers niche, then whatever - EQ2 is niche. Along with LotRO, Everquest for its entire lifecycle thus far, UO/AO, all MUDs ever, Warhammer Online, Age of Conan, PotBS...and every other game that isn't WoW or Runescape. And then I'll tell you there's nothing wrong with that, and kudos to the dev team lead by Scott who pulled EQ2 from a terrible niche game to a pretty decent niche game.

[Twobit Whore]

Niche means filling the needs of a small market. EVE is niche, since it fills the needs of slow-paced politic-based PvP. Other MMOs aren't typically aiming at a different market segments like this, they are all PvE focused diku derivatives with maybe some half-assed PvP tacked on.. this includes AoC and even WAR. These games aren't niche, they are failures.

PotBS is another niche game, basically EVE on water instead of space.. at least that was the intent. This game was both niche AND a failure.

[Venjenz]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

As for Scott and EQ2 my only issue is that while he succeeded in removing a few things that actively made me want to stop playing he didn't exactly add much that made me want to keep playing

This is where I end up with EQ2. I have started and stopped 3 or 4? times now, and while the last two starts sucked less than before they made major improvements, the game still has that "hit these 23 buttons in this order in every fight, rinse repeat" combat model that bores me to the point of insanity after maybe 5-6 levels of grinding/questing.

Maybe whatever game he lands on, he can remember all these unchanged EQ1/2 and SWG gripes and help whatever company not put this oft repeated and always broken shit in whatever game they are making.

[Utnayan]

Good Christ. This is a side bar post (Shock) And then I cannot believe there has to be a fucking definition of a market niche. Which has been defined since the 1800's.

I went through and started clicking on random "Blogs". Hartsman is the only designer worth a shit when I looked at the side bars of people. And then after reading the bullshit these "designers" write, it's no wonder why jack shit gets done in this industry.

Protip: Quit analyzing the fuck out of everything and just make the God Damn game. After reading why Lisa Boleyn (Isn't this the same one that was hired at Sigil because she fell in love with MMORPG's after playing SWG?) decided she should play Halo 3 a year and a half after it was released because it would expand her knowledge of game design (All I saw was it expanded my knowledge of adjectives to use in useless emo blogs) I had to click off before I upchucked my Chipotle Burrito Bol. Put down the fucking pot, put down the keyboard, take your medicine, go to bed, wake up, and start designing a game without having 45 meetings to determine what the definition of accessibility means. If you do not know what it means by now, you are a lost cause. Get out and design the next version of Turbo Tax.

Being niche doesn't care if you have one subscriber or 500 million. It's based on it's target market and what the demographic and population of that market is. WAR being related and focused to PvP players. EQ2 relating to more focused grouping (No matter how many revamps they have had, this is still the case) with less ability to solo. Vanguard would be in the "Pass my Oxy" niche. 2,326 people that when they aren't guest stars on Intervention, decide to boot up their computers.

Niche is where the mass market will miss. Focusing on a certain subject/target for that small group of people outside a mass target area.

The problems in niche game design come out when it is just another rushed piece of shit and publishers think they overestimated the target. For example: Planetside. A cluster fuck of epic proportions which now has every company that was watching it saying the MMOFPS genre doesn't even have a niche following. Which if anyone actually came out with a strong MMOFPS with a goal driven (tangible and intangible) system that was accessible (Notice I do not have to define the word as our developer blogger friends feel the need to do hours on end) backed by either a strong or original IP, and neccessary funding with a producer that will keep their dev's on track instead of letting them play Warcraft 5 hours out of their 8, than 6 months prior to launch jamming 2 years of content down the ass end of a 3 year old engine, you would see that this particular "niche" would be a very strong and successful product.

Enter Blizzard who would make World of Starcraft and probably turn it into a mass market phenomenon, just as they did with the MMORPG genre when everyone else (Publishers/devs scapegoating their bug ridden unfinished failures and blaming it on a stale market) thought they were battling over the same 1 million people (Niche) who would play those types of games.

Have to love those blogs though. By all means, smoke it up with Pablo Escobar and write a "Let's play" version of Star Wars Galaxies next.

"The movement of the dancers and detail reminded me exactly of what I saw at the strip club last night. Someone really did their homework for hours on end. Meanwhile, the attention to the bikinis on female entertainers were just a bit bland from what's currently on the market at Fredericks of Hollywood. Obviously they spent more time at the strip club than shopping for their girlfriend.... Excuse me... (SNORT ... CHEEEEUUUUUUUU) Seeing this made the decision for me that after I was done cleaning my house for 14.3 hours straight, I would fuck Ryan Elam and join a video game design company."

[Aamina]

Well said sir. Just design the dang game, or even give some people around here a crack at it, at least those who won't spend 5/8 playing Warcraft.