[WoW] 4.0 - Cataclysm - Page 55

Zehn - Vhex · 08-23-2009, 02:40 PM

Rated BG's will be nice because you'll actually get something for playing against people who are as good/better then you as opposed to regular BG's where pub stomping is better honor then fighting the good fight.

I hope they take this opportunity to remake some of the BG's though. AV is gonna be annoying if all it turns into is raid A racing raid B to the end boss and the winner is the one who has more druids to cyclone more tanks/healers.

Pyros · 08-23-2009, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

Rated BG's will be nice because you'll actually get something for playing against people who are as good/better then you as opposed to regular BG's where pub stomping is better honor then fighting the good fight.

I hope they take this opportunity to remake some of the BG's though. AV is gonna be annoying if all it turns into is raid A racing raid B to the end boss and the winner is the one who has more druids to cyclone more tanks/healers.

Haven't read the details, but did they say AV would be in the rated BG rotation? Still, it was a fun BG back in the days to play, and druids alone don't do much shit, it's very easy for ~25people to survive the last room even with tanks being cycloned, if they're in the same guild. What makes cyclone so good in pugs is people panic and not one fucking DK/War/Pld/Feral tard is gonna taunt the boss because they're too busy dpsing in their quest greens. I mean, it's not like MC engi helm times and green dragons which were real raid bosses, AV doesn't scale for shit, once you're at the 2nd tier in an expansion the whole room can be 5manned, and it only gets worse.

Zehn - Vhex · 08-23-2009, 04:00 PM

IoC/AV will be 25 when rated yeah. Even still I hope they add a lattice system so you actually have to fight/push.

Pyros · 08-23-2009, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

IoC/AV will be 25 when rated yeah. Even still I hope they add a lattice system so you actually have to fight/push.

That's somewhat what they tried to do in one of the AV revamp, by having these stacking buffs for when you leave marshals up, but again due to the lack of scaling, it's only an issue if you're using shitty geared people in shitty spec, the tanks of a raiding guild can easily handle the amount of damage done by all the mobs in the room, even including idiots throwing cyclones and shit like that in there.

They could simply add doors though. At the bridge and like at the building you have to go through on horde side with the stairs and shit, doors would have very high hp so you could break them but it'd take a ton of time, or instead you could destroy them using something that's unlocked after you kill the mini bosses, or the towers, or both. Having to destroy everything all the time isn't necessarily good though, but having the choice between rushing the door and taking it down, at the risk of getting wiped in there and losing a lot of time, vs taking strategic points on the way and securing the path.

Zehn - Vhex · 08-23-2009, 05:33 PM

Well, I played a metric shit-ton of Unreal and I always preferred maps with lattices to those with free capture points. It tends to focus the action and more importantly you don't have to split your force considerably to hold capture points way behind the action. The reason it would suck in AV now is dragging that quagmire out sucks when the goal is honor. If they made killing the enemy worth more honor then winning the BG we'd probably see a significant flip in that philosophy.

The AV layout needs to be fixed something fierce either way. The bridge is infinitely more defensible with all the knockbacks in the game now in addition to the better coverage the bunkers give vs. the Horde towers. Only reason Horde wins now is nobody gives a shit about defending and I can rush straight to SP and cap both bunkers + GY. I think one in 20 games someone will stop me and all it really takes is one boomkin or ele shaman standing on the bridge.

Kreugen · 08-23-2009, 06:39 PM

I just wanted to point out that removing +damage means I won my five year old crusade against +stupid. VICTORY!

And Hunters are now the best class in the game. 1-85 without eating or drinking, sign me the fuck up!

NativityInBlack · 08-23-2009, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kreugen

I just wanted to point out that removing +damage means I won my five year old crusade against +stupid. VICTORY!

And Hunters are now the best class in the game. 1-85 without eating or drinking, sign me the fuck up!

Wish they would just patch some of that stuff right away (like the BG changes), should be almost a year away I guess.

Sithro · 08-23-2009, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Warlock

•Soul Shards are no longer in your bags. The goal is to make them fun, not a hassle.
•Soul Shards will be integrated to the user interface. (Just like Death Knight runes)
•You get three shards per fight, they will regen very quickly out of combat.
•It will be possible to get more for long fights or mistakes through Drain Soul.
•Soul Burn (New Spell) : Cost 1 Shard, 30 sec cooldown, off the GCD. Empowers your next spell, many (not all spells) behave differently when empowered.
•Empowered Searing Pain : Next 3 Searing Pains crit
•Empowered Summon Demon : Instant Cast
•Empowered Soulfire : Instant Cast
•Empowered Fear : Instant Cast
•Empowered Death Coil : Longer Horror, more healing received.
•They are only used in combat, summons or demons won't use your shards.

As a former Warlock...

Do not know if want... Sounds like they have the potential to be some kind of damage Gods if you do your rotation right.

The Ancient · 08-23-2009, 07:40 PM

How could you not want? Anything is better than the current system.

Rudd · 08-23-2009, 07:45 PM

I assume he meant he wouldn't want it as the Warlock class would then become the pet class of every no talent ass clown out there a la 04 Rogues, 05 Warriors, 06 Hunters, 07 Paladins, 08 SPriests, and 09 DKs.

Torrid · 08-23-2009, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

Well, I played a metric shit-ton of Unreal and I always preferred maps with lattices to those with free capture points. It tends to focus the action and more importantly you don't have to split your force considerably to hold capture points way behind the action. The reason it would suck in AV now is dragging that quagmire out sucks when the goal is honor. If they made killing the enemy worth more honor then winning the BG we'd probably see a significant flip in that philosophy.

The AV layout needs to be fixed something fierce either way. The bridge is infinitely more defensible with all the knockbacks in the game now in addition to the better coverage the bunkers give vs. the Horde towers. Only reason Horde wins now is nobody gives a shit about defending and I can rush straight to SP and cap both bunkers + GY. I think one in 20 games someone will stop me and all it really takes is one boomkin or ele shaman standing on the bridge.

Hi. Where were you three years ago when I was arguing this. You and your legion of admirers could have saved me a lot of trouble.

I would add however that "quagmire" wins are more honor over time than quick loses, the vast majority of the time -- especially if you have any sort of queue time. (not to mention are far more entertaining)

And I assure everybody, that if a full 40 man well geared premade did AV, Drek would die in 10 seconds. Drek has 1.1 million hp with all four warmasters up, and 440k with them gone. How much burst can a 40 man raid do blowing every cooldown they have? We'll find out if Blizzard doesn't change the map. Racing in AV should have been hotfixed in 2006.

Zehn - Vhex · 08-23-2009, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torrid

Hi. Where were you three years ago when I was arguing this. You and your legion of admirers could have saved me a lot of trouble.

3 years ago I would have already given up after railing about the shitty layout of AV for a year already. <3 Though I did add pretty visual aides a couple years later.

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/828459-post467.html

It's capped at 25 man but I could see them applying a -25% damage taken aura per marshall as well or something if they don't add lattices. We could probably down him in 20 seconds or so, if that. Two paladins with raid wide shield wall will trivialize the damage the marshal's do during charge/ww.

Clericnon2boxed · 08-23-2009, 08:51 PM

the towers suck, too much waiting, usually without any action until they finally burn, more emphasis on GYs or actual kills player vs player would be better imo, going thru all the different AV iterations over the years I actually only want to see new BGs rated and not the goddamn old ones

Spontaneous Cumbustion · 08-23-2009, 09:07 PM

4.0 is so far away I'm having trouble really getting into all of this.

Xequecal · 08-23-2009, 09:16 PM

Balancing the General HP/damage is tricky. If you make it too high the PUGs will be unable to kill it at all. There was a lot of problems with this when WotLK first came out, there were AVs where the 40 people up there simply could not kill the unopposed general. They also had to nerf the Isle of Conquest general damage on the PTR because the pugs couldn't fucking kill him.

I'd suggest giving the generals a crapload of HP and adding a mechanic that forces zerging, it's the only way I can see to balance it. Make the generals untauntable, low melee damage, and have them fixate random people in the room. When they hit you they quickly apply a stacking debuff that reduces max HP. After a few seconds you die, or run out of the room and he resets.

As long as you give them super see invis so you can't cheese it with like vanish or feign death, I think it would work. It's fair for both undergeared groups and epic premades, as both would be forced to keep a certain amount of people inside the room so he can't kill everyone before you can rez and get back inside, and also gives a great opportunity for the defense. Kill enough people in there and he'll finish the last few off and reset.

08-23-2009, 08:51 PM	#823 (permalink)
Clericnon2boxed this way Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: El Dorado Posts: 1,790	the towers suck, too much waiting, usually without any action until they finally burn, more emphasis on GYs or actual kills player vs player would be better imo, going thru all the different AV iterations over the years I actually only want to see new BGs rated and not the goddamn old ones __________________ Join eRepublik - eNorth Korea

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08-23-2009, 02:40 PM	#811 (permalink)
Zehn - Vhex Lord of the Dance Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 8,796 +166 Internets	Rated BG's will be nice because you'll actually get something for playing against people who are as good/better then you as opposed to regular BG's where pub stomping is better honor then fighting the good fight. I hope they take this opportunity to remake some of the BG's though. AV is gonna be annoying if all it turns into is raid A racing raid B to the end boss and the winner is the one who has more druids to cyclone more tanks/healers.

08-23-2009, 04:00 PM	#813 (permalink)
Zehn - Vhex Lord of the Dance Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 8,796 +166 Internets	IoC/AV will be 25 when rated yeah. Even still I hope they add a lattice system so you actually have to fight/push.

08-23-2009, 05:33 PM	#815 (permalink)
Zehn - Vhex Lord of the Dance Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 8,796 +166 Internets	Well, I played a metric shit-ton of Unreal and I always preferred maps with lattices to those with free capture points. It tends to focus the action and more importantly you don't have to split your force considerably to hold capture points way behind the action. The reason it would suck in AV now is dragging that quagmire out sucks when the goal is honor. If they made killing the enemy worth more honor then winning the BG we'd probably see a significant flip in that philosophy. The AV layout needs to be fixed something fierce either way. The bridge is infinitely more defensible with all the knockbacks in the game now in addition to the better coverage the bunkers give vs. the Horde towers. Only reason Horde wins now is nobody gives a shit about defending and I can rush straight to SP and cap both bunkers + GY. I think one in 20 games someone will stop me and all it really takes is one boomkin or ele shaman standing on the bridge.

08-23-2009, 06:39 PM	#816 (permalink)
Kreugen Fires of Heaven Ancient Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 3,137 +71 Internets	I just wanted to point out that removing +damage means I won my five year old crusade against +stupid. VICTORY! And Hunters are now the best class in the game. 1-85 without eating or drinking, sign me the fuck up!

08-23-2009, 07:45 PM	#820 (permalink)
Rudd Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 176 -28 Internets	I assume he meant he wouldn't want it as the Warlock class would then become the pet class of every no talent ass clown out there a la 04 Rogues, 05 Warriors, 06 Hunters, 07 Paladins, 08 SPriests, and 09 DKs.

08-23-2009, 09:07 PM	#824 (permalink)
Spontaneous Cumbustion Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Wilmington, DE, USA Posts: 524	4.0 is so far away I'm having trouble really getting into all of this.

08-23-2009, 09:16 PM	#825 (permalink)
Xequecal Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1,744 -27 Internets	Balancing the General HP/damage is tricky. If you make it too high the PUGs will be unable to kill it at all. There was a lot of problems with this when WotLK first came out, there were AVs where the 40 people up there simply could not kill the unopposed general. They also had to nerf the Isle of Conquest general damage on the PTR because the pugs couldn't fucking kill him. I'd suggest giving the generals a crapload of HP and adding a mechanic that forces zerging, it's the only way I can see to balance it. Make the generals untauntable, low melee damage, and have them fixate random people in the room. When they hit you they quickly apply a stacking debuff that reduces max HP. After a few seconds you die, or run out of the room and he resets. As long as you give them super see invis so you can't cheese it with like vanish or feign death, I think it would work. It's fair for both undergeared groups and epic premades, as both would be forced to keep a certain amount of people inside the room so he can't kill everyone before you can rez and get back inside, and also gives a great opportunity for the defense. Kill enough people in there and he'll finish the last few off and reset.