[WoW] 3.2 - Call of the Crusade

[Zbkuk]

Rated BGs are going to be a massive letdown, they are going to have all of the hangups that arena does, and then some. There will still be fotm comps, terrain/LOS tomfoolery, horrible balance issues, organizational issues...the list doesn't end. It's a big enough clusterfuck trying to organize 5s games right now, people really think they'll be able to get a larger team together than that on any kind of a regular basis? If they let you queue without a full team, then it will be a blast losing rating because Timmy had to go eat dinner.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if I'm off the mark here and rated BGs turn out to actually be good, but I just don't see how they can avoid any of things.

[Blumpster]

Arenas need to not be the cornerstone of WoW PvP. 90% of the people who do arenas just do it for their shitty points and the gear. Most people could care less if they were 1500 or 9000, as long as they got some purples. 10 game gogo. BGs and World PvP objectives should have equal reward systems, and be more prominent.

[Azrayne]

But then they can't turn their game into an E-Sport!

[TheCutlery]

Originally Posted by Rusty Dagger

Okay I'll bite. What on earth could someone like me PLAYING THE GAME possibly do to weaken arena? I mean I get you want to just angst at me and insult me for any possible reason that pops in your head but can you at least attempt to be logical?

It's simple, dumbass

You have been bitching about the SAME shit since S3. "No one is ever going to be getting shoulders, blah blah blah." Now, to be fair, I have too. I say the exact same shit, that every patch, they do more to take the fun out of the fucking arena. Here's the difference.

I quit playing the arena. You, apparently, didn't. What do you think impacts the design choices more? Lots of people playing something, or no one playing it? If everyone stopped playing arena tomorrow, they'd be forced to come up with some kind of competition mechanism where ANYTHING actually fucking meant something in there. It has always been "reroll the new overpowered comp, and then faceroll your way to the top." That's ALWAYS been the strat in arena, and if you dickshines had actually all quit it instead of keeping on rolling new alts and new teams and doing the same fucking thing every season constantly chasing your epeen stroke, maybe something would have changed by now.

I honestly don't see how ANYONE plays that pile of shit anymore. But the fact that they do, prevents it from being changed into something that people might enjoy, because the powers that be just look at arena participation and think everything's hunky dory.

[Rusty Dagger]

Originally Posted by TheCutlery

Here's the difference. I quit playing the arena. You, apparently, didn't.

First of all, I didn't play S5 and skipped about the first half of S6 mostly because I had no one to play with and didn't have enough motivation to find someone.

But your logic is BEYOND flawed. I enjoy pvp. I WANT to pvp. What am I supposed to do, not play at all? PvE is fucking boring. Me not playing isn't going to change a thing; they base all their decisions off the top 2% since they want this to be some retarded e-sport. The fact they put ratings on EVERYTHING is proof they insist you play.

So my alternative is what, BGs? In 2-3 weeks (at the high end) I'll have gotten all the honor I need for 2 seasons back gear and then .. what? There's still no way to get a weapon without pvping so I'm forced to sit through a boring ass ulduar run or get 1850. And at that point I can destroy anyone without gear and get destroyed by anyone who arenas. And that's not even counting the fact that BGs are filled with the most retarded players known to man. Say what you want about my skill or ability and I'm not even going to waste breath defending myself as it will do no good, but I always compete. I go for objectives. I'll take an idiot in greens who tries over the arena hero who's just there to kill people on the road.

So what then? Roll another alt? Spend the few hours a week it takes to raid and then resume being bored? I like pvp'ing. It's not my fault the arena system is shit and me pouting and standing on my soapbox threatening to stop playing unless they fix it won't change a god damned thing.

[TheCutlery]

Originally Posted by Rusty Dagger

But your logic is BEYOND flawed.

No it's not. Look at EQ. 400k subscribers at the height of their peak, and they never once made any effort to make that game less shitty.

WoW comes along, and fucking destroys the shit outta their userbase, and the 12 people who kept playing all of a sudden are living the dream because of how many changes they've made that make it fun to play.

Your logic is flawed. I think you know that on some basic level.

[Rusty Dagger]

Originally Posted by TheCutlery

No it's not. Look at EQ. 400k subscribers at the height of their peak, and they never once made any effort to make that game less shitty.

WoW comes along, and fucking destroys the shit outta their userbase, and the 12 people who kept playing all of a sudden are living the dream because of how many changes they've made that make it fun to play.

Your logic is flawed. I think you know that on some basic level.

You'd be right except for the 2 glaring problems.

1) What is 1 person going to do? EverQuest didn't change a single thing going from 400,000 subscribers to 399,999. I can't force the other maybe 500k-1 million people who arena to just suddenly stop.
2) What am I supposed to do instead? Suppose I deviantly quit arena and hope it makes some impact. There's no point to pvp left at that point since you max out what battlegrounds can provide in a matter of weeks and repeating most bg's is a boring endeavor.

[Mmmkeshek]

Play a different game for awhile? Jesus christ.

AFK, my rocket needs surgery.

[Blackulaa]

Originally Posted by Zbkuk

Rated BGs are going to be a massive letdown, they are going to have all of the hangups that arena does, and then some. There will still be fotm comps, terrain/LOS tomfoolery, horrible balance issues, organizational issues...the list doesn't end. It's a big enough clusterfuck trying to organize 5s games right now, people really think they'll be able to get a larger team together than that on any kind of a regular basis? If they let you queue without a full team, then it will be a blast losing rating because Timmy had to go eat dinner.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if I'm off the mark here and rated BGs turn out to actually be good, but I just don't see how they can avoid any of things.

Well I understand that, but I personally would feel better losing because of an objective I couldn't conquer because of my team, compared to walking into arena, seeing dru/dk and throwing down my mouse, because I choose to play an enh shammy of fail.

To each his own.

[Rusty Dagger]

Originally Posted by Blackulaa

Well I understand that, but I personally would feel better losing because of an objective I couldn't conquer because of my team, compared to walking into arena, seeing dru/dk and throwing down my mouse, because I choose to play an enh shammy of fail.

To each his own.

See there's a big difference here. You chose to play enhancement. Had you gone resto and grabbed a melee partner, you might have at least stood a chance. But with BGs in their current format, there is absolutely nothing 1 person can do to overcome 14 failures of human life. Rated BGs, if implemented properly (and it's a rather daunting task and certainly cannot not be based on win/lose) would be the only pvp this game needs.

[Big W Powah!]

Originally Posted by Lenas

Grieg was Luclin.

Doljonijiarnimorinar, Dain, Vindi, Statue, AoW, Tormax, Yelinak, Koi'Doken, Velketor, Wuoshi, Tunare, Sleeper's Tomb (~6?), Temple of Veeshan (~18+?)

Lord Bob was not a fucking raid encounter; he was more akin to a heroic 5 man boss. Era-appropriate he only took 18 if you didn't suck nuts.

Dain is debateable, but he took a raid so we'll count him.

Vindi was low tier raiding, but we'll count it.

Statue, AoW, Tormax, Yelinak, Velketor, Woushit, Tunare, ST (and yes, 6, 2 of the velium mobs+4 warders; Lets say 5 for arguments sake, since you couldn't wake one warder), Temple of Veeshan held a number of bosses, but they were progression specific.

Even counting them all you had 3 Kael Armor wing, 1 HoT, NToV had Wyvern+Drake, Arry. Then you had the 6 lords n ladies+1 more non lord/lady. 12 in all.


Yeah, Velious was stacked in high end content; but you weren't doing it all at once. you maybe had 18 high end boss encounters on your radar in any given week; this was 2-3 nights worth of raiding if you controlled them; 5-7 for a SHORT ammount of time each night if you did. Yeah, you cockblocked lower tier guilds.

But you have to remember; Velious wasn't the proper analogue to lich king; fucking luclin is. Clearly tiered dungeons to progress through. Shitty mobs->Ssra->VT.


Fuck i'm drunk bitches

[Felonius]

2 Things completely offtopic:

1) Jesus fucking christ, the mmo-champ forums are almost as bad as the wow forums, its more retarded than my 17 year old autistic brother.

2) Makata et all. Stop fucking every wow thread up with pvp. Things people actually care about in this thread: Badge changes, LOLDK nerfs, and what the new raid will be like, gtfo

[Zehn - Vhex]

Makata is the king of revisionist history. How you people don't all have him on ignore by now is beyond me.

Anyways...

Originally Posted by Araxen

Nax shouldn't even be counted because it's all recycled content. The first real Northrend raid dungeon didn't occur till Uld. SoV was all original content.

For what it's worth, if we're discounting recycled content then pretty much all of SoV needs to be cut out since every dragon fight was the same thing. Pull, duck AE, collect loot! It was VP all over again basically. Every other fight was "What corner do I pull the mob to?"

Fuck, Venril Sathir was more complex then most SoV fights since you at least had to figure out how to deal with the life drain.

Originally Posted by Zbkuk

Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if I'm off the mark here and rated BGs turn out to actually be good, but I just don't see how they can avoid any of things.

My guess is they'll make ratings personal if they do. Trying to manage a 10~15~40 man team would be a pain in the ass. I imagine you'll be rated by your performance against the rest of your teams, weighted by the ilvl of your gear vs. there's or something.

As in, trying to make sure that a great player with shitty gear on a shitty team gets more points then a shitty player with great gear on a great team.

[James]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

Fuck, Venril Sathir was more complex then most SoV fights since you at least had to figure out how to deal with the life drain.

Venril Sathir was an excellent fight. The whole concept behind it is still pretty badass to this day.

[Northerner]

Originally Posted by mek

MC - Ragnaros undefeatable for almost a year.
BWL - Nef undefeatable for months.
AQ- Cthun undefeatable for months.
TBC launch - insanely overtuned tier 4 plus consumable requirements destroy most raiding guilds, everyone becomes lolpvp casuals.
SSC - Vashj defeated by one guild only for months, which immediately flamed blizzard for making an insanely buggy fight. Presumably used an entirely-soulstoned raid to do it.
TK - Kael undefeatable for months.

Let's do problems where they actually were though (and yes, they existed).

MC- Rag was a cockblock for a bit but it was in situ not that bad. We still had people leveling up and Blizz figuring out that +frost was better than +int and shit like that. Rag *was* beatable but bugged when launched, we were all just a little too stupid to game the system well enough with imbalanced items and strats for the most part. Yes indeed the bugs would hinder but it wasn't a hard block like PoE.

BWL- The real cockblocks there (Horde) were Vael 1.0 and the lack of BoS for later shit. The Nef issues were real but relatively trivial in comparison. Anyone that could consistently drop Brood (Blood?) Lord deserves a nod.

AQ- C'thun issues mattered because we all ran up against them in due course. Still, the fucks up of AQ were twofold in original Visci and Huhu. Fuck ghetto farming resistance gear straight in the ear and fuck even the first big pro-horde advantage. Stupid is as stupid does.

Naxx- Oh, we skipped that? k.

TBC- Gruul was fucked initially. No question there really. Mags and Vashj had also issues of course (lol Vashj, I never saw the initial incarnation sadly) but essentially it was a miss on philosophy rather than anything else. Vashj and Kael were still some great fights but obfuscated by bullshit and silliness for too long. Oh, and then nerfed into spank and spanks really. Surely someone else loved Archi too and surely there is some middle ground? Of course no one much enjoyed Gruul where literally perfect play was needed and I doubt the intention was for Vashj to need SS trains and so on. Still, they were interesting in their middle incarnations. And then of course turned into pinatas. I didn't even mind Mother much given that the tools for progression came from, well, progression. It was still arguably a bullshit random encounter but, if prepared, one could still eek out a kill after a few pulls even with RNG hate.

Balance isn't Blizzard's MMO forte. Sad really given how damned good they are at it for SC.