[WoW] 3.1 - Ulduar

[darksensei]

It's definitely a good start, aside from the one hour cockblock, if they expanded that idea a bit further than raiding would be okay. One boss every 6 months...not quite.

[Lenaldo]

Originally Posted by darksensei

Yes, let's have a riveting debate where you defend all the wonderful decisions Blizzard has made (except mana), because you still play the game and find it enjoyable.

WoTLK raiding versus old raiding

Hard modes versus hard content. (-)
No key quests versus bad key quests. (+)
Negligible upgrades/ formulaic loot versus decent upgrades (-)
Expansion beat in 3 days versus ? (-)
Raid stacking versus raid stacking (=)

And you're an idiot Aaubert, and you fail at reading comprehension. That's the excuse Blizzard themselves have used in justifying their current raiding model. Hence it's relevancy. Meanwhile you think the person asking for non-lore related hard content is a) a lore fan, and b) a non-raider. You might just be the next Einstein.

Rose-tinted glasses much? Do you remember how bad t1 was itemized? T2 was a slight upgrade, but still had stats wasted on resists.. Also, remember how unbalanced set bonuses were??? Was it priests that used their t2 set bonus for the whole of vanilla???


You can't even compare the raiding timeline anymore since there are so many "sponsored" guilds as well as extensive testing of the encounters.

Honestly, there are a lot of complaints to be had with WoW, but if you think the new "raiding" theory is one you havnt tried it. its the perfect compromise for one of the biggest issues... people not seeing content.

I was in a SSC/TK pre attunments being lifted guild... an illidan guild.. and a KJ guild... I would rather have had content this way than the "old" way.


My server went from having 10+ guilds on each faction raiding at least something(MC) to having 6 total for most of TBC... "Bad" guilds couldnt survive in TBC because content was just too hard... This made recruiting for good guilds incredibly hard because there were no "farm" teams to build talent/gear. Every new person you recruited almost certainty needed attunements and possibly some back-gearing before they could become useful. It was a fucking headache.

[darksensei]

I think my overall message has been lost by debating individual points, Blizzard's first and largest mistake in WoTLK was making raiding the only content that matters. They negated any value of quest items, heroics, professions (aside from their passive benefits now), and 10 mans by making 25 man content in it's current state. Yes, people need to see content. But should an MMO run out of content as easily as WoW is doing right now? That's on the system design people.

Like I said before, I thought the idea of making 10 mans the same as 25 mans was so people who just wanted to experience the content could see it in 10 mans, but 25 mans could stay relatively the same. That seemed like a reasonable trade-off. We see less interesting 10 mans, but we won't run into a situation such as the wait between BT and Sunwell.

Not to go off on a tangent, but do you really feel itemization is done better now than before? Completely replacing your items with 13 iLvL worth of upgrades every dungeon? Tier sets being uniforms?

[BurnemWizfyre]

The 10 man was supposed to be for the people to experience the content and 25 man was supposed to be the challenge. Instead we get fights that actually harder in 10 man then in 25 even on hard mode, and Super easy 25 man with hard modes which basically equal to "do it with one hand tied behind your back while you jerk off". To top it off they made the Ulduar hard modes so fucking impossible only the top 10 in the world maybe could kill the things because they weren't hard enough to begin with and got butt hurt about it.

They are just now starting to nerf these things to make it possible for the rest of the top 100 to kill. Sorry but 14 bosses in 3 days is a joke, and it was 3 days because the first day and a half the instance servers were completely slammed (hey you guys lets make this shit easy as fuck and then sit around wondering why our instance servers cant handle the load) making the instance almost completely unplayable.

[Valishar]

Originally Posted by BurnemWizfyre

The 10 man was supposed to be for the people to experience the content and 25 man was supposed to be the challenge. Instead we get fights that actually harder in 10 man then in 25 even on hard mode,

What fight in 10 man Ulduar is harder than it's 25 man counterpart?

[findar]

Originally Posted by Valishar

What fight in 10 man Ulduar is harder than it's 25 man counterpart?

flame leviathan. fuck anyone for saying otherwise.

[Lenaldo]

Originally Posted by darksensei

I think my overall message has been lost by debating individual points, Blizzard's first and largest mistake in WoTLK was making raiding the only content that matters. They negated any value of quest items, heroics, professions (aside from their passive benefits now), and 10 mans by making 25 man content in it's current state. Yes, people need to see content. But should an MMO run out of content as easily as WoW is doing right now? That's on the system design people.

Like I said before, I thought the idea of making 10 mans the same as 25 mans was so people who just wanted to experience the content could see it in 10 mans, but 25 mans could stay relatively the same. That seemed like a reasonable trade-off. We see less interesting 10 mans, but we won't run into a situation such as the wait between BT and Sunwell.

Not to go off on a tangent, but do you really feel itemization is done better now than before? Completely replacing your items with 13 iLvL worth of upgrades every dungeon? Tier sets being uniforms?

I think a lot of the issues with heroics/normals being a pushover in wrath was the last change by blizzard to make raiding content in TBC a joke. Before tbc, most people had some T1 and maybe some pvp gear... very few people had t3 or even a full t2 set. Because of this the gear upgrade from tbc was astronomical compared to what people were wearing.

For wrath it just wasnt the same... most people were alrdy in t6 and didnt need any upgrades before starting naxx. I will agree that heroics were a REAL let-down in wrath.. I too enjoyed the normal->heroic->raid progression... but i think its more a result of the gear divide between tbc+wrath being a lot less than what it was originally.

[BurnemWizfyre]

Originally Posted by Valishar

What fight in 10 man Ulduar is harder than it's 25 man counterpart?

There is also Sarth 10 man that was harder then 25 man, we were talking about the history of WoTLK thus far not just Ulduar.

[TheYanger]

"fights" you mean the singular fight that was then?

[DavivMcD]

Originally Posted by BurnemWizfyre

There is also Sarth 10 man that was harder then 25 man, we were talking about the history of WoTLK thus far not just Ulduar.

Ah yes, in the Ulduar thread, let's focus on and bitch about past mistakes Blizzard made that they already admitted to and said they wouldn't do again...

[Thug]

I'm all for more guilds seeing content. I guess. But when it's so fucking laggy on tuesday cause 900 scrub guilds are in ulduar trying to kill Flame Leviathan cause the front door of the zone is wide open, then fuck it. The game becomes unplayable.

[Ninen]

I always find the hypocrisy of citing accessiblity for most of the nerfs/dumbing down of content combined with complete gear resets that completely invalidate all old content. There's zero reason for a significant amount of old world and TBC to even exit now, from an items standpoint. How many folks are... accessing... Strath/Scholo/TBC hard modes other than to come back and solo slum through it (if even that)?

[Zehn - Vhex]

Probably 1~2 pug runs a week on TBC content. You see achievement whores (of which there are alot) back in TBC hard modes nearly every night as well. Pretty much everyone and their uncle has solo'd Onyxia for shits and grins. ZG gets hit pretty frequently. Can usually find people in MC every other night. Vael kinda cockblocks BWL but you get tons of people in AQ40 as well going for red bug mount and achievements.

It's just not farmed for gear anymore so there's no reason to go back after you've accessed it once or twice to go see it.

What does "from an items standpoint" even fucking mean anyways? Are you sure you understand what hypocrisy means?

[Agraza]

I agree about flame 10. I know we're still improving on both fronts, but we last a lot longer on 25 doing the same things on 10. The siege/demo redundancy helps add granularity to total dps when one person has to kite whereas on 10 it's basically an off switch for the group when 1/2 demos gets targeted. We've got a guy who can just barely keep a 10 stack flowing 5/6 kites and he is our demo messiah. We'll need to find more such gems before we can make real progress on 10 man. Since there is no 226 iLevel cap, I suspect we'll finally down FL 10 once the entire group is packing mostly 232-239, sad as that is. This week our siege engines couldn't interrupt after the 2nd wipe so we had to go down to 1 tower just to make it to the end. This zone will really be a lot more fun once the bugs are gone.

One thing that seems to be working as intended, but I think is wrong, is that molten constructs on Ignis drop threat. That feels very off. I don't see what it's supposed to add or subtract from the fight. It's an annoyance that was compensated for in 0.5 seconds one time and had to be explained to any new handler we assigned.

[Dalien]

Originally Posted by Lenaldo

My server went from having 10+ guilds on each faction raiding at least something(MC) to having 6 total for most of TBC... "Bad" guilds couldnt survive in TBC because content was just too hard... This made recruiting for good guilds incredibly hard because there were no "farm" teams to build talent/gear. Every new person you recruited almost certainty needed attunements and possibly some back-gearing before they could become useful. It was a fucking headache.

I'd have to disagree and say recruiting is actually harder now... at least it is for us. From vanilla to early WotLK we always had plenty of people, hell during lolNaxx a few months ago we had 40+ people online every raid night wanting to get in.

Now that we're back to our full raid schedule (19 hrs/week, certainly not as heavy as the "top" guilds but we still manage to get shit done) grinding Ulduar hard modes, we've had quite a few people peace out to go faceroll the easy modes with Guild X on Server Y. With how easy it is to see the content/collect loots now in basically a PUG, it seems that most people don't really care enough to attempt the challenging content.

Perhaps it's just my guild having problems attracting quality players atm (we ARE recruiting btw if you have a pulse and don't breath through your mouth) but it seems that alot of raiding guilds picked up talent in the past because there were lots of people that DID want to see the Vashjs/Kaels/Illidans/etc.