Star Wars: The Old Republic

[Dumar]

oh please. somehow asking people to simply tell the truth is waxing nostalgic about 'outdated' paradigms and design philosophy. if only they would allow ffa pvp, then i wouldn't be commenting right?

if the term mmo has shifted its meaning to what you or the marketers of this game described, then i dare say that words are meaningless, and you are free to interpret anything however you want.

it makes no sense to call this game a mmo in the context of, well, a fucking mmo. it's not open to interpretation because words have meaning. it's not open to a 'blending' of genres or 'the next evolutionary design step' because those are marketing speak for saying 'we are capitalizing on the mmo word in order to make more money'.

i originally came to this board because people called a spade a spade. recently this is not the case. recently, people calling spade's spades are met with ridicule and insults. a sad day.

[Senen]

Originally Posted by Dumar

oh please. somehow asking people to simply tell the truth is waxing nostalgic about 'outdated' paradigms and design philosophy. if only they would allow ffa pvp, then i wouldn't be commenting right?

if the term mmo has shifted its meaning to what you or the marketers of this game described, then i dare say that words are meaningless, and you are free to interpret anything however you want.

it makes no sense to call this game a mmo in the context of, well, a fucking mmo. it's not open to interpretation because words have meaning. it's not open to a 'blending' of genres or 'the next evolutionary design step' because those are marketing speak for saying 'we are capitalizing on the mmo word in order to make more money'.

i originally came to this board because people called a spade a spade. recently this is not the case. recently, people calling spade's spades are met with ridicule and insults. a sad day.

This is not the case at all Dumar your simply buying into some guys progaganda for no other reason well then to just do it. Now when the game hits beta and its nothing like the loose term MMO that most of us go by you might be onto something. If then it ends up being a glorified rpg with some hints of MMo maybe everyone can get a little upset that the game wasn't what we traditionaly expected. Right now none of us honestly knows anything diffrent then what the games being billed as a Next Gen MMo with RPG storytelling for the quest/storyline. If that part can be compared to Lotr Story/Quest system then I don't see anyone running around claiming that Lotr isn't a bonified MMO do you?

[Dumar]

i understand that, but you also can't be blind to the obvious. and here it's pretty damned obvious. if i'm wrong (and i fucking hope to allah i am), i'll fess up when i login to their persistent world as the bounty hunter i always wanted to be.

you know what an mmo is. most people on this board know what an mmo is. if you played uo, eq, you know EXACTLY what an mmo is. it has nothing to do with ffa pvp, corpse looting, or dungeon camping. it has to do with the persistent world and interaction with everyone in it. obviously, this requires much server infrastructure and with that, customer support; it requires cost.

now, there are people in this industry that would very much like to transform the term 'mmo' to mean exactly the type of game as that guy described; ie, a single or multiplayer game, heavily or completely instanced, non-persistent world, sub fees, transactional real-money trading, and all the other completely antithesis-to-mmo profit seeking bullshit that each and every one of you defending it can be blamed for.

there is no blurring the line. there is no 'evolutionary step in the genre' (there could've been, but that was squandered). if you allow them to call it an mmo now, without ANY real info being released to support using it, then when it comes out and it's exactly as we all really expect, it will still be called an mmo. and you'll probably be logging onto your single player 'adventure' and paying $5 for a lightsaber upgrade. and that will mean massively multiplayer.

that's what i'm here to prevent. and i will call out the bullshit because mmos gave me experiences that would otherwise be impossible. while expecting a real mmo is wishful thinking now, i won't let marketing parrots subvert and pervert its meaning.

[Starsailor]

Originally Posted by Senen

This is not the case at all Dumar your simply buying into some guys progaganda for no other reason well then to just do it. Now when the game hits beta and its nothing like the loose term MMO that most of us go by you might be onto something. If then it ends up being a glorified rpg with some hints of MMo maybe everyone can get a little upset that the game wasn't what we traditionaly expected. Right now none of us honestly knows anything diffrent then what the games being billed as a Next Gen MMo with RPG storytelling for the quest/storyline. If that part can be compared to Lotr Story/Quest system then I don't see anyone running around claiming that Lotr isn't a bonified MMO do you?

Yeah but LOTRO does have a persistent world, it does have cities and social hubs and places to hang out and form communities and events. Its essentially the same as WoW, but just a bit more overuse of instances for quests and for inside areas.

Theres no real cut-off/test for things which are MMO and 'not MMO' but we can all put games in a range of what be believe to be 'true' MMO-style to things which are not. From EQ/UO/SWG as the 'pure' MMO to WoW/LOTRO, to AOC/WAR to then Guild Wars at the other end of scale.

Ultimately it comes down to two things. 1) The scale of the game and the world, and 2) The community which can develop in that setting. The more you cut things up, and the more you limit social interaction the less Massively and the less Multiplayer you get.

Dumar is right. To allow them to use the tag MMO puts it in the same bracket as EQ and WoW, I as a consumer would (especially if I'm paying the same subs fee) expect a similar scale of range and investment in the infrastructure and gameplay experience which I get from those games. Not to say its going to be the same, but the same level in detail and range and options.

If they call it something else, and I don't care what, then fine. But if they call it a MMO, and it has subcription fees. Then I expect a certain something.

[Itzena]

Dumar, why don't you just die in a fire IRL and put everyone out of your misery?

Thanks.

[Caliane]

His arguments are valid IF the really isn't a true MMO. But he's being very absolute about his statements, in regards to what we just don't know. Prefacing his argument with, "If", would go a long way.

The game could still be the WoW clone we all assumed it was based on artwork, and early talk about the game.



I am not a fan of non mirrored classes if this game has pvp. RvR, etc as has been inferred.
Perhaps it will be WAR style, where classes are kindof mirrored but not exactly? But still this makes balancing hell. And I would choose better gameplay over any aesthetic choice of non mirrored classes.

Trooper reveal is more interesting then BH I think. Given the companion article.
"highest ranged dps" for republic, Heavily armored, gives buffs to allies.
Notably, there are clearly stuns in the game for pvp concerns as well.
We can guess possibly 3 tree talent/skill as one option for the above. Or the class could be all three of these things, suggesting a non-trinity design?

[Tudana]

Dumar,

I think they are going to use the same Night/Day destiny quest style for the single player’s story line as AOC did starting in the shipwreck pict island in Tortage.

I really liked that touch in the game. Was the first time I ever experienced that kind of game play in a MMO, and yes AOC is a full MMO even with the destiny questing that I had to work on privately...similar to the hints from SWTOR story line as a private quest (solo play). I think the companions we will have, will be part of this only, Not the MMo parts.

If they do this, then the game will qualify as a MMO imho and it will bring us into the story and character in a fantastic way.

Best of both worlds

[Xhar]

Mandalorian Blockade Broken

[Badass]

Any clue whatsoever when beta for this is expected? Final release date guess's?

[NativityInBlack]

Originally Posted by Badass

Any clue whatsoever when beta for this is expected? Final release date guess's?

I'd guess - beta registrations soonish third quarter of this year (they can start taking apps a year before the actual thing like everyone else is doing this days..), beta starting by the second quarter of 2010, release in Q4 2010.

I've been trying pretty hard to stay away from the website as for me, waiting one year+ for a game I'm desperate to play is pure suffering.

Hoping Ch:O and Starcraft 2 keep us busy.

-

On the topic if it will be a persistent massive-multiplayer vs. sub guild wars I think that we all in some level hope this will be a persistent world that will challenge (finally) WoW for the crown, but that's highly unlikely, given Bioware's own RPG's record, not impossible tho, hope one of us spill some beans when the beta is up.

Anyway stick to Swtor for the fun, glorified single player component and less of us will feel let down later on, will be a good game anyway, in 18 months none of this theory-crafting will matter anyway we all will be discussing nerfs to bounty hunter ranged damage and Jedi melee dmg somehow.

[Shabado]

I can't believe there is discussion over the fate of "MMO". Seriously. Game terms alter. RPG does not mean "role playing game" any more, it hasn't for years. A lot of RPGs are no more role playing than Mario. RPG just means a game which conforms to a type which we call RPG.

MMO just means games which conform to a certain type, and that type isn't even fully defined yet.

[Caliane]

Originally Posted by Shabado

I can't believe there is discussion over the fate of "MMO". Seriously. Game terms alter. RPG does not mean "role playing game" any more, it hasn't for years. A lot of RPGs are no more role playing than Mario. RPG just means a game which conforms to a type which we call RPG.

MMO just means games which conform to a certain type, and that type isn't even fully defined yet.

I'll give you the term RPG changed when RPG's changed formats from pnp to pc/console. but in terms of electronic RPG's the term hasn't changed much in describing what kind of game you are paying for.
Using the term MMO to justify paying fees on a game that isn't really one, just to make more money really isn't the same thing.
the term rpg for systems has been used since Adventure,Dragonquest,rogue. All of which are have stat building, but no real roleplaying. Not till stronger systems for nwn, etc that the full exercise of roleplaying really worked on pcs.
RPG just sounds better then Item and stat managment game. ISMG?

[Faith]

Look at WoW and DDO.

In the first you have an open world where you can interact with others and then some instances to go to with your group/raid.

In the other you have a city (that has instances of itself if it becomes crowded, like 10 ppl in the same inn...) that has openings to instances for your group.

If they go with the WoW/EQ/UO version, fine, it is what most people expect from something called a MMO. If they go the DDO way, it will probl be the same spectacular fail.

If you pay a sub, you expect the "massive multiplayer" part of the game to be there, not a singleplayer with a chatroom to hook up with people to do instances in.

[masteen]

Faith put it really well. This is more than a semantic argument; calling a game and MMO without supplying a fairly large and open overworld is setting your game up for failure. If for nothing else than failing to understand what a term means to your customer base.

Right now in NA and Europe, MMO means WoW. If you don't deliver on a fairly similar experience, your customers are going to feel deceived. Yes, the hard core SW nerds will still stay and pay, but that audience is smaller (and younger) than it used to be. Young may be good for sales of toys and other merch, but young is bad when it comes to MMO subs.

[Zerai]

Is CoH an mmo then? Cause by faith's definition it's not.