[WoW] PVP and Arena Discussion (Arena Talk HERE ONLY) - Page 16

Balu1 · 10-08-2008, 03:43 AM

From what I read on the beta forums, it sounds like alot of stun durations are getting nerfed soon. I hear they may also change the 4 piece set bonus as well. Burst will also most likely get toned down somewhat, but I can't see it getting nerfed too bad. I doubt rets would be getting a ms debuff anytime soon, burst is the only way to really compete against this. Hell, ret has been asking for an interupt (not on the hammer cooldown) for awhile now, they don't get that either. Blizzard says they dont want too much class homoginization....then they make all taunts ranged.

Fuck resto druids, they have it way too easy right now. Ret would probably be a decent counter to a resto druid if he couldn't stand there and out heal all his damage.

I think people are exagerating the insant flash of lights. They hit for 1900 non crit with a murmur premade. Thats what less than most classes can deal in 1 second. It only procs on 3 abilities, all of which, have cooldowns. Sure, you can force a crit with hammer and your judgements, but I seriously doubt that would be done specifially for an art of war proc. Instant fol's from art of war procs also reset the swing timer. Thats a decent dps loss, considering rets hard hits. Numbers wise, it's not much different from classes with passives that add healing done to them (mut rogues/ferals/warlocks). Those classes don't lose dps when they recieve the extra healing.

PS Avenging Wrath is only 20%. Freedom, hammer , avenging wrath and repentance are all dispellable by multiple classes.

Gnome Eater · 10-08-2008, 04:00 AM

They have 30% dispell resist, and even if you instantly dispell it, you can still use it to get yourself out of stuns.

As I said, ret paladin burst is completely retarded and everyone who has experienced it agrees. The lack of a healing debuff is big, but just pair up ret paladin with a rogue, and you end up with healing debuff on demand, 2 6 second stuns on a 20 second timer that don't share DR, and someone else to snare your target for you.

Watch druid/rogue/ret paladin teams wreck everything in 3s. You have stun / sheep immunity, and the ability to kill anyone within a stun.

Think of something like frost-mage burst. For a frost mage to get a ~5000 burst, you require a 3 minute cooldown (pet), pet nova, a 2.5 second spell with zero pushback resist (or another 3 minute cooldown for pushback immunity) and another GCD.

Oh, you also need line of sight. Pretty much a mage REQUIRES someone else to set them up to burst someone, and even then, they require significant cooldowns. Ret paladin burst is far far higher than a shatter combo, it requires a 20 second cooldown, and you don't need anyone else to set it up for you.

Clug · 10-08-2008, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balu1

I think people are exagerating the insant flash of lights. ... Those classes don't lose dps when they recieve the extra healing.

Did you seriously just compare something a solo class can do to something that requires an external healer? Seriously?

Come on, get out of this thread already. Art of War is ridiculous in it's current form.

Balu1 · 10-08-2008, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clug

Did you seriously just compare something a solo class can do to something that requires an external healer? Seriously?

Come on, get out of this thread already. Art of War is ridiculous in it's current form.

Isn't pvp about group play? Thats like saying paladins don't need MS or snare, just group with someone that can. I know it's a stretch, but focus your brain and think really hard on it. Maybe I should compare art of war heals to life drain or imp lotp procs.

Art of War overpowered in its current form? Is it bugged again? Does it proc on all crits again?

If ret's are supposedly demolishing people in a 6 second window every 20 seconds, the last thing you have to fucking worry about is a potential instant 1900 heal every 6, 8 and 10 seconds. I'd also like to note that in the recent builds I have yet to do or see anyone getting killed in a 6 second hammer from full to nothing. I'm sure if it was happening like everyone acts like its happening, screenshots and logs would be pasted all over the beta boards.

I fucking swear, every faggot that gets beat by a ret paladin on murmur comes to the forums and bitches about every single ability like it's why they are getting raped. It's the burst damage. It's going to get adjusted.

People also need to remember that after the next patch (live) pvp isn't going to be balanced. It probably won't start balancing out till towards the end of season 1, when people start getting sets of deadly gear. There are too many factors to look at. All classes scale different.

Fadaar · 10-08-2008, 12:15 PM

Man so much crying. It's a wonder you people aren't politicians with the amount of bitching you do.

Gnome Eater · 10-09-2008, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fadaar

Man so much crying. It's a wonder you people aren't politicians with the amount of bitching you do.

Hahahhahaa, a ret paladin complaining that people point out how insane they are on beta.

I am going to laugh myself silly when you get nerfed horrendously, everyone who is not a ret paladin already knows the nerf is coming, enjoy ^_^

Quote:

PvP is tough because if you visit every class forum, you'll find a long list of abilities that the class *must have* in order to be PvP competitive, followed by the statement of fact that this class is getting destroyed in PvP.

Now if you ignore the Retadins and Unholy DKs who are probably broken somehow, who is winning all of these fights that everyone is losing?

Zest · 10-09-2008, 03:53 AM

As much as I love being the FotM, Ret on WotLK is kinda stupid... and really it's only going to get worse. It's going to be S3 Rogues all over again once people realise you can wear PvE gear and still PvP as a Ret Paladin.

Also, please revert IoL so I can play Holy without crying myself to sleep at night.

Genjiro · 10-09-2008, 04:35 AM

At least you admit it.

DKs are also just fucking stupid. I was in strand and killed 3 on 1, granted I snagged a set of deadly armor when the vendor was bugged (not the wep tho), but still, their survivability is ridiculous and can do equally insane damage. Rune strike is just retarded how hard it hits.

200% wep dmg + 500, glyph to make it +10% crit. I hit my orc racial with full buffs on and hit a rogue for like 5600.

It also cannot be blocked dodged or parried (parry part at least is broken but still). DKs are just stupid, its like playing NES with the gameshark. Not as bad as paladins imo, because a good mage just hands me my ass, dks are pretty easily kited if you have ways to get out of range of them since death grip is a 35s cd (25 with talents). Pally with constant "take a knee bitch" can smack a mage around pretty well, easier than a dk can at least.

Gnome Eater · 10-09-2008, 04:59 AM

Yeah, and shattering a ret paladin is pretty damn hard given cleanse/hand of freedom/and instant heals to keep up with the damage from instants.

Zerai · 10-09-2008, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genjiro

At least you admit it.

DKs are also just fucking stupid. I was in strand and killed 3 on 1, granted I snagged a set of deadly armor when the vendor was bugged (not the wep tho), but still, their survivability is ridiculous and can do equally insane damage. Rune strike is just retarded how hard it hits.

200% wep dmg + 500, glyph to make it +10% crit. I hit my orc racial with full buffs on and hit a rogue for like 5600.

It also cannot be blocked dodged or parried (parry part at least is broken but still). DKs are just stupid, its like playing NES with the gameshark. Not as bad as paladins imo, because a good mage just hands me my ass, dks are pretty easily kited if you have ways to get out of range of them since death grip is a 35s cd (25 with talents). Pally with constant "take a knee bitch" can smack a mage around pretty well, easier than a dk can at least.

Yeah. Rune Strike is going to get nerfed hard. You basically got the vanilla version of Overpower. Except better.

Overpower has slowly been nerfed every expansion so now it's just 100% weapon damage. No modifiers. Which is why when I first read Rune Strike I went..what the fuck is that.

Fadaar · 10-10-2008, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnome Eater

Hahahhahaa, a ret paladin complaining that people point out how insane they are on beta.

I am going to laugh myself silly when you get nerfed horrendously, everyone who is not a ret paladin already knows the nerf is coming, enjoy ^_^

I'm sorry but I seem to be missing the part where I'm a ret paladin?

Gnome Eater · 10-10-2008, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fadaar

I'm sorry but I seem to be missing the part where I'm a ret paladin?

When you posted your armory had you in ret gear with a cataclysm's edge. Even if you are holy and waiting for 3.0 to spec ret, blues have pretty much stated that rets are due some heavy nerfing.

Balu1 · 10-10-2008, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnome Eater

Yeah, and shattering a ret paladin is pretty damn hard given cleanse/hand of freedom/and instant heals to keep up with the damage from instants.

Aren't you the same guy that pointed out that paladins have dispel resistance? Now cleanse is a corner to the trifecta of winning on a ret paladin. I'm pretty sure every single class that has an important debuff has some sort of dispel resistance to it.

Gnome Eater · 10-10-2008, 02:57 AM

Yes, dispell is only a small part of it - the main reason why shattering a ret paladin is difficult is because they can make themselves immune to roots and they can break stuns at will while stunned. Admittedly those abilities have a window where you cannot keep them up, but you are not going to get that many occasions to get a shatter combo off.

syeren · 10-10-2008, 03:54 AM

Seriously don't see why people are giving a shit about Ret Paladins, especially with 3.0 coming.

They're going to have a month of being able to shit on pretty much everyone (but Mages), and that's that, by the time level 80 will have come they'll be in order with other DPS I hope (for their sake).

Do you people forget that Resto Druids have ruined every single bracket of arena for over a year due to how retarded that class is? Play a healer and play against a Druid, that's what playing against a Ret Paladin is like in 3.0 for a DPS, except that's not going to last a fucking year like Resto Druids, it's going to last a month.

Armory...
The World of Warcraft Armory
The World of Warcraft Armory

10-08-2008, 04:00 AM	#227 (permalink)
Gnome Eater Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 994 -2 Internets	They have 30% dispell resist, and even if you instantly dispell it, you can still use it to get yourself out of stuns. As I said, ret paladin burst is completely retarded and everyone who has experienced it agrees. The lack of a healing debuff is big, but just pair up ret paladin with a rogue, and you end up with healing debuff on demand, 2 6 second stuns on a 20 second timer that don't share DR, and someone else to snare your target for you. Watch druid/rogue/ret paladin teams wreck everything in 3s. You have stun / sheep immunity, and the ability to kill anyone within a stun. Think of something like frost-mage burst. For a frost mage to get a ~5000 burst, you require a 3 minute cooldown (pet), pet nova, a 2.5 second spell with zero pushback resist (or another 3 minute cooldown for pushback immunity) and another GCD. Oh, you also need line of sight. Pretty much a mage REQUIRES someone else to set them up to burst someone, and even then, they require significant cooldowns. Ret paladin burst is far far higher than a shatter combo, it requires a 20 second cooldown, and you don't need anyone else to set it up for you. Last edited by Gnome Eater : 10-08-2008 at 04:03 AM.

10-08-2008, 12:15 PM	#230 (permalink)
Fadaar Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 1,907	Man so much crying. It's a wonder you people aren't politicians with the amount of bitching you do. __________________ Fadaar - 80 Paladin (Storm) - Gilneas

10-09-2008, 04:35 AM	#233 (permalink)
Genjiro We bawlin boi! Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,817	At least you admit it. DKs are also just fucking stupid. I was in strand and killed 3 on 1, granted I snagged a set of deadly armor when the vendor was bugged (not the wep tho), but still, their survivability is ridiculous and can do equally insane damage. Rune strike is just retarded how hard it hits. 200% wep dmg + 500, glyph to make it +10% crit. I hit my orc racial with full buffs on and hit a rogue for like 5600. It also cannot be blocked dodged or parried (parry part at least is broken but still). DKs are just stupid, its like playing NES with the gameshark. Not as bad as paladins imo, because a good mage just hands me my ass, dks are pretty easily kited if you have ways to get out of range of them since death grip is a 35s cd (25 with talents). Pally with constant "take a knee bitch" can smack a mage around pretty well, easier than a dk can at least. __________________ Genjiro--Legacy of Steel--EQ1 sexy monk (retired) Entreri--Guildleader of Ardent Legion--EQ2 (retired) WarEagle86: "What the hell, does everyone at WVU run a 4.2 or something? Never seen that much speed before." Last edited by Genjiro : 10-09-2008 at 04:37 AM.

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10-08-2008, 03:43 AM	#226 (permalink)
Balu1 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 33 -12 Internets	From what I read on the beta forums, it sounds like alot of stun durations are getting nerfed soon. I hear they may also change the 4 piece set bonus as well. Burst will also most likely get toned down somewhat, but I can't see it getting nerfed too bad. I doubt rets would be getting a ms debuff anytime soon, burst is the only way to really compete against this. Hell, ret has been asking for an interupt (not on the hammer cooldown) for awhile now, they don't get that either. Blizzard says they dont want too much class homoginization....then they make all taunts ranged. Fuck resto druids, they have it way too easy right now. Ret would probably be a decent counter to a resto druid if he couldn't stand there and out heal all his damage. I think people are exagerating the insant flash of lights. They hit for 1900 non crit with a murmur premade. Thats what less than most classes can deal in 1 second. It only procs on 3 abilities, all of which, have cooldowns. Sure, you can force a crit with hammer and your judgements, but I seriously doubt that would be done specifially for an art of war proc. Instant fol's from art of war procs also reset the swing timer. Thats a decent dps loss, considering rets hard hits. Numbers wise, it's not much different from classes with passives that add healing done to them (mut rogues/ferals/warlocks). Those classes don't lose dps when they recieve the extra healing. PS Avenging Wrath is only 20%. Freedom, hammer , avenging wrath and repentance are all dispellable by multiple classes.

10-09-2008, 03:53 AM	#232 (permalink)
Zest Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 716	As much as I love being the FotM, Ret on WotLK is kinda stupid... and really it's only going to get worse. It's going to be S3 Rogues all over again once people realise you can wear PvE gear and still PvP as a Ret Paladin. Also, please revert IoL so I can play Holy without crying myself to sleep at night.

10-09-2008, 04:59 AM	#234 (permalink)
Gnome Eater Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 994 -2 Internets	Yeah, and shattering a ret paladin is pretty damn hard given cleanse/hand of freedom/and instant heals to keep up with the damage from instants.

10-10-2008, 02:57 AM	#239 (permalink)
Gnome Eater Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 994 -2 Internets	Yes, dispell is only a small part of it - the main reason why shattering a ret paladin is difficult is because they can make themselves immune to roots and they can break stuns at will while stunned. Admittedly those abilities have a window where you cannot keep them up, but you are not going to get that many occasions to get a shatter combo off.

10-10-2008, 03:54 AM	#240 (permalink)
syeren Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 62	Seriously don't see why people are giving a shit about Ret Paladins, especially with 3.0 coming. They're going to have a month of being able to shit on pretty much everyone (but Mages), and that's that, by the time level 80 will have come they'll be in order with other DPS I hope (for their sake). Do you people forget that Resto Druids have ruined every single bracket of arena for over a year due to how retarded that class is? Play a healer and play against a Druid, that's what playing against a Ret Paladin is like in 3.0 for a DPS, except that's not going to last a fucking year like Resto Druids, it's going to last a month. Armory... The World of Warcraft Armory The World of Warcraft Armory