[MMORPG] The Lost Concepts of PvP

Desx · 09-03-2008, 06:42 PM

I'm hoping someone else can help me put this into perspective. One of my friends keeps talking about WAR and its PvP content. Curious, I read up about it and decide it's not the game for my specific PvP needs.

I wanted to analyze, what makes a PvP system good? Is it the ability to PvP more? the gameplay? the quality? individual/team development?

Gameplay and quality has always been the issue for me. WoW felt like a never ending zergling rush with low quality pvp. It was always the quality of the kill that excited me, even if it was once a day or once a week. Running the same battleground or arena day after day is boring.

In my opinion, the essence of PvP was lost when penalties ended. Before penalties you had a player base that was strictly against PvP (this usually inclued the non-risk takers, which was 90% of the MMO population). These people avoided engagement to the fullest extent.

No more looting?
This is what gave PvP its true essence. You died and paid a price and generally it wasn't very big. The idea of losing something you worked for shines light on the true essence of death - which is losing everything. This type of concept in games made PvP more exciting. It also showed a true hierarchy of power.. obtaining something is one thing, but maintaining it is another.

I think this is where the foundation of PvP begins and where it was lost.

Havelock · 09-03-2008, 06:46 PM

The problem now is that if a population wants to avoid PvP like that, they just play a different game. They'd stick around and just try to avoid the risk if the game was good enough, but there are enough quality games on the market that if the risk doesn't float their boat, they have plenty of other options.

Desx · 09-03-2008, 06:48 PM

Yea you have a good point.. its sad.

Vhenc · 09-03-2008, 06:53 PM

They need to bring back a UO style system of handling pvp.

mek · 09-03-2008, 06:54 PM

EVE Online with a real budget = true PvP MMO.

Necrolyte · 09-03-2008, 07:05 PM

Having played old-school pre-Trammel/Felucca UO, I think those were some of the best PvP days in the history of MMOs; however, those times are over. To make great money as a MMO these days you just can't have stuff like perma-death, personal item drops or harsh death penalties.

However, I think WAR's in a good position because there's a certain sense of community and pride in sieging an opponent's city or losing your own. It's hard to explain so I won't bother, but when your city is under attack, and you start teaming up with strangers randomly and petty stuff gets put aside, you still get that same thrill and feeling of victory like old-school PvP systems.

Desx · 09-03-2008, 07:16 PM

I hope your right =p

flv · 09-03-2008, 08:01 PM

I totally agree with the OP.

PvP isn't made by closing a bunch of individuals inside a battleground and letting them kill each other, at least that's not how it was in the games I've enjoyed. That's just a mayhem or a FPS in third person.

PvP is, for me, all about politics, free will, fear, drama, dissolving weak guilds and seeing how the strong ones prevail. Where's all that when you kill 200 people every day and die another 200 times? Where's all that when nobody is afraid of pvping?

Being afraid of pvping isn't a bad thing, the adrenaline rushes all over your body and you reach a pleasure point after winning. I know many people who have admited to get nervous during pvp, I also admit it, I used to get nervous when people flagged on me in L2 cause I knew I was gonna loose 4% (which meant about a hour of pure grinding) unless I reacted, the satisfaction feeling after killing the other guy, and then seeing how he trashtalks you from the floor, is priceless.

Instances and battlegrounds are also killing this feeling in many games, the game should never pick your enemies nor your friends, you should, and battles shouldn't be pre-organized fair fights, it never was in battles history.

Sabyn · 09-03-2008, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desx

I wanted to analyze, what makes a PvP system good? Is it the ability to PvP more? the gameplay? the quality? individual/team development?

Gameplay and quality has always been the issue for me. WoW felt like a never ending zergling rush with low quality pvp. It was always the quality of the kill that excited me, even if it was once a day or once a week. Running the same battleground or arena day after day is boring.

In my opinion, the essence of PvP was lost when penalties ended. Before penalties you had a player base that was strictly against PvP (this usually inclued the non-risk takers, which was 90% of the MMO population). These people avoided engagement to the fullest extent.

No more looting?
This is what gave PvP its true essence. You died and paid a price and generally it wasn't very big. The idea of losing something you worked for shines light on the true essence of death - which is losing everything. This type of concept in games made PvP more exciting. It also showed a true hierarchy of power.. obtaining something is one thing, but maintaining it is another.

I think this is where the foundation of PvP begins and where it was lost.

What the fuck are you talking about?

Your post has all the trappings of fail made manifest. You have some made up statistics, some really "no shit" observations, and then a proclamation from oh high that really doesn't tie in to your previous points.

First you say gameplay is paramount, which I think most of us here can get behind. It is the heart of the game and the main force that drives re-playability. Then you go on to say something about the quality of a kill but don't both explaining what the fuck you mean by this. Overcoming great odds? Beating a better geared player / team? Good play on your part? Then another stellar observation that running the same 4 battlegrounds for 2 years gets old. Moving along . . .

Random made up statistic. Enough said, I think.

Ok, now we seem to get your general point: penalties are good. Who doesn't love being penalized for engaging in content? True, allowing someone to loot your shit when they gank you adds excitement, but so would administering an electric shock every time you died. Doesn't mean they are good gameplay mechanics. PvP (in pretty much any game, not just MMOs) involves dying . . . a lot. Even if you aren't a scrub you are still going to die, it happens. It has to for there to be any meaningful pvp taking place. Adding any sort of penalty beyond time lost waiting around to spawn is usually a very bad idea. It creates a situation where people say "fuck this" and look for a game where they can actually participate without getting fucked over. Even though you made the number up, you even think yourself that adding penalties drives players away.

Even in WoW, can you imagine how unfun the game would be if you took durability loss from pvp? A very minor penalty, yet it would make pvp almost unworkable.

Pvp should be fun without the dread of some exterior penalty being inflicted upon you. If they gameplay is good enough I don't need the fear of losing my corpse to keep me logging in.

CreatingStyle · 09-03-2008, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabyn

What the fuck are you talking about?

Your post has all the trappings of fail made manifest. You have some made up statistics, some really "no shit" observations, and then a proclamation from oh high that really doesn't tie in to your previous points.

First you say gameplay is paramount, which I think most of us here can get behind. It is the heart of the game and the main force that drives re-playability. Then you go on to say something about the quality of a kill but don't both explaining what the fuck you mean by this. Overcoming great odds? Beating a better geared player / team? Good play on your part? Then another stellar observation that running the same 4 battlegrounds for 2 years gets old. Moving along . . .

Random made up statistic. Enough said, I think.

Ok, now we seem to get your general point: penalties are good. Who doesn't love being penalized for engaging in content? True, allowing someone to loot your shit when they gank you adds excitement, but so would administering an electric shock every time you died. Doesn't mean they are good gameplay mechanics. PvP (in pretty much any game, not just MMOs) involves dying . . . a lot. Even if you aren't a scrub you are still going to die, it happens. It has to for there to be any meaningful pvp taking place. Adding any sort of penalty beyond time lost waiting around to spawn is usually a very bad idea. It creates a situation where people say "fuck this" and look for a game where they can actually participate without getting fucked over. Even though you made the number up, you even think yourself that adding penalties drives players away.

Even in WoW, can you imagine how unfun the game would be if you took durability loss from pvp? A very minor penalty, yet it would make pvp almost unworkable.

Pvp should be fun without the dread of some exterior penalty being inflicted upon you. If they gameplay is good enough I don't need the fear of losing my corpse to keep me logging in.

Are you retarded?

Jait · 09-03-2008, 08:52 PM

You already made this thread/post in both the AoC and WAR threads.

And this thread is just embarassing. Look up the word "analysis" for starters, you're supposed to break down issues of substance one by one, not fucking cry about how WoW is too hard for you. Go play Shadowbane or UO with the other 14 people, or make a game yourself. There's no substance in your post whatsoever. You're just trying to capitalize on the popularity of upcoming releases like WAR and WotLK with retarded one-liners.

HiroYagyu · 09-03-2008, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreatingStyle

Are you retarded?

No, he's actually making a valid, and supported, argument.

You'd have to be the retarded one to miss that.

Sabyn · 09-03-2008, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreatingStyle

Are you retarded?

No, I made the first half-way decent post about pvp in this thread. Feel free to disagree with what I said though. Just don't continue this thread's shit-heap of unsupported claims though.

I think we are all headed for the shaw soon though.

Convo · 09-03-2008, 09:24 PM

Darkfall FAQ - Rules

flv · 09-03-2008, 09:29 PM

Im sorry, but i don't consider "physical pain-loss on a video game" comparision as a good argument.

There are people who jump from planes for fun, the fun there is on the controlled risk feeling, you know nothing will happen, but your mind makes you cautious by sending adrenaline to your blood.

The truth on his post is that most of the MMORPG players are conformists who are killing the character and player progression, as he said, people get frustrated and log off instead of trying harder. Making games for that kind of population leaves us, old schoolers, seeing how the market we helped to build is not feeding us anymore.

MMORPGs are getting easier and easier as time goes by, and also getting "carebearized" (god, how I love that word) just cause the casual gamer can't handle the heat.

Average Joe is happy, MMORPG player isn't.

09-03-2008, 06:42 PM	#1 (permalink)
Desx Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 549	[MMORPG] The Lost Concepts of PvP I'm hoping someone else can help me put this into perspective. One of my friends keeps talking about WAR and its PvP content. Curious, I read up about it and decide it's not the game for my specific PvP needs. I wanted to analyze, what makes a PvP system good? Is it the ability to PvP more? the gameplay? the quality? individual/team development? Gameplay and quality has always been the issue for me. WoW felt like a never ending zergling rush with low quality pvp. It was always the quality of the kill that excited me, even if it was once a day or once a week. Running the same battleground or arena day after day is boring. In my opinion, the essence of PvP was lost when penalties ended. Before penalties you had a player base that was strictly against PvP (this usually inclued the non-risk takers, which was 90% of the MMO population). These people avoided engagement to the fullest extent. No more looting? This is what gave PvP its true essence. You died and paid a price and generally it wasn't very big. The idea of losing something you worked for shines light on the true essence of death - which is losing everything. This type of concept in games made PvP more exciting. It also showed a true hierarchy of power.. obtaining something is one thing, but maintaining it is another. I think this is where the foundation of PvP begins and where it was lost.

09-03-2008, 06:53 PM	#4 (permalink)
Vhenc Fuck you bitch, call the cops. Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 182 -15 Internets	They need to bring back a UO style system of handling pvp. __________________ You can stay in the retard sections here, though, and unleash your homotastic teen angst against the populace.

09-03-2008, 07:05 PM	#6 (permalink)
Necrolyte Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Washington Posts: 741	Having played old-school pre-Trammel/Felucca UO, I think those were some of the best PvP days in the history of MMOs; however, those times are over. To make great money as a MMO these days you just can't have stuff like perma-death, personal item drops or harsh death penalties. However, I think WAR's in a good position because there's a certain sense of community and pride in sieging an opponent's city or losing your own. It's hard to explain so I won't bother, but when your city is under attack, and you start teaming up with strangers randomly and petty stuff gets put aside, you still get that same thrill and feeling of victory like old-school PvP systems. __________________

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09-03-2008, 06:46 PM	#2 (permalink)
Havelock Lead Farmer Join Date: May 2005 Location: DC Posts: 1,976	The problem now is that if a population wants to avoid PvP like that, they just play a different game. They'd stick around and just try to avoid the risk if the game was good enough, but there are enough quality games on the market that if the risk doesn't float their boat, they have plenty of other options.

09-03-2008, 06:48 PM	#3 (permalink)
Desx Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 549	Yea you have a good point.. its sad.

09-03-2008, 07:16 PM	#7 (permalink)
Desx Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 549	I hope your right =p

09-03-2008, 08:01 PM	#8 (permalink)
flv Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 159	I totally agree with the OP. PvP isn't made by closing a bunch of individuals inside a battleground and letting them kill each other, at least that's not how it was in the games I've enjoyed. That's just a mayhem or a FPS in third person. PvP is, for me, all about politics, free will, fear, drama, dissolving weak guilds and seeing how the strong ones prevail. Where's all that when you kill 200 people every day and die another 200 times? Where's all that when nobody is afraid of pvping? Being afraid of pvping isn't a bad thing, the adrenaline rushes all over your body and you reach a pleasure point after winning. I know many people who have admited to get nervous during pvp, I also admit it, I used to get nervous when people flagged on me in L2 cause I knew I was gonna loose 4% (which meant about a hour of pure grinding) unless I reacted, the satisfaction feeling after killing the other guy, and then seeing how he trashtalks you from the floor, is priceless. Instances and battlegrounds are also killing this feeling in many games, the game should never pick your enemies nor your friends, you should, and battles shouldn't be pre-organized fair fights, it never was in battles history.

09-03-2008, 08:52 PM	#11 (permalink)
Jait Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: :noitacoL Posts: 3,645	You already made this thread/post in both the AoC and WAR threads. And this thread is just embarassing. Look up the word "analysis" for starters, you're supposed to break down issues of substance one by one, not fucking cry about how WoW is too hard for you. Go play Shadowbane or UO with the other 14 people, or make a game yourself. There's no substance in your post whatsoever. You're just trying to capitalize on the popularity of upcoming releases like WAR and WotLK with retarded one-liners.

09-03-2008, 09:24 PM	#14 (permalink)
Convo Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 440 -20 Internets	Darkfall FAQ - Rules

09-03-2008, 09:29 PM	#15 (permalink)
flv Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 159	Im sorry, but i don't consider "physical pain-loss on a video game" comparision as a good argument. There are people who jump from planes for fun, the fun there is on the controlled risk feeling, you know nothing will happen, but your mind makes you cautious by sending adrenaline to your blood. The truth on his post is that most of the MMORPG players are conformists who are killing the character and player progression, as he said, people get frustrated and log off instead of trying harder. Making games for that kind of population leaves us, old schoolers, seeing how the market we helped to build is not feeding us anymore. MMORPGs are getting easier and easier as time goes by, and also getting "carebearized" (god, how I love that word) just cause the casual gamer can't handle the heat. Average Joe is happy, MMORPG player isn't.