[MMORPG] The Lost Concepts of PvP

[mutantmagnet]

I think both you Cynno and Mkopec1 are making flawed points. UO was steadily growing at a healthy rate before trammel was introduced and continued to grow at nearly the same rate for over a year after the intro.

If Trammel was such a bad thing for the UO population we would've seen an immediate decline in subs (or atleast stagnation) as seen with DAOC post Trials of Atlantis or SWG post NGE. (admittedly SWG was already in a decline but CU and NGE accelerated the decline far faster than the original slope was heading)


Changing the direction of your company has had dire consequences outside of MMOs as well. Trammel wasn't the end of the world for UO as a business venture Cyno even if you as a customer hated it. But to say Trammel was neccessary to save UO because of a failed pvp model is weak since it was consistently growing for a full year after EQ came out, Mkopec1. The only reason Trammel was made was in response to EQ having a superior growth rate.

Trammel didn't really change UO's growth potential on its own.

[Lyenae]

Originally Posted by Caliane

What real benefit is there to hardcore penalties?.

The real benefit is psychological. People behave differently in PvP when there are significant penalties to losing. Psychology adds depth to PvP. You can intimidate when there's penalties, you can bluff when there's penalties. When there are no penalties, no one gives a fuck.

I think the significance of penalties should depend on the player skill and/or his prepartations. You should be able to minimize your loss. If you were real careful in Shadowbane, you could PvP alot and/or get ganked and not lose much (durability hits.) If you took the time to watch track, select your hunting grounds carefully, recall/banked frequently, being rolled as not a big deal. You prob just lost a lil gold. Seriously in 1.5 years of Shadowbane where I spent on average 3 hours a day farming, I don't remember getting rolled ever.

But if you were a shitty player, who never watched track, decided to hunt in 'desirable' hunting grounds where gankers often roam, and only banked/recalled at the end of your camp sessions... yes, you could get FUCKED. Fucked hard if you get rolled, lose 4-6 hours of farming cash, runes, hireling contracts, etc. Fucked hard if you put all your eggs in one basket and piss everyone off so they bane your town and ally up to zerg you.

That was your choice though. Your own skill determined how badly you got shafted.

[Tullaeniel]

Originally Posted by Lyenae

The real benefit is psychological. People behave differently in PvP when there are significant penalties to losing. Psychology adds depth to PvP. You can intimidate when there's penalties, you can bluff when there's penalties. When there are no penalties, no one gives a fuck.

I think the significance of penalties should depend on the player skill and/or his prepartations. You should be able to minimize your loss. If you were real careful in Shadowbane, you could PvP alot and/or get ganked and not lose much (durability hits.) If you took the time to watch track, select your hunting grounds carefully, recall/banked frequently, being rolled as not a big deal. You prob just lost a lil gold. Seriously in 1.5 years of Shadowbane where I spent on average 3 hours a day farming, I don't remember getting rolled ever.

But if you were a shitty player, who never watched track, decided to hunt in 'desirable' hunting grounds where gankers often roam, and only banked/recalled at the end of your camp sessions... yes, you could get FUCKED. Fucked hard if you get rolled, lose 4-6 hours of farming cash, runes, hireling contracts, etc. Fucked hard if you put all your eggs in one basket and piss everyone off so they bane your town and ally up to zerg you.

That was your choice though. Your own skill determined how badly you got shafted.

Skill isn't going to town to drop off loot every 5 seconds. Skill isn't leveling up in nondesirable areas just to avoid getting fucked. Skill isn't typing /who every 10 seconds. What it does add to the game is tedium and tedium to a game is bullshit.

People behave differently in PvP when there are significant penalties to losing.

No shit they quit playing it. Because it's a poor system, the PvP you guys pine over it the kind with who can be the biggest asshole. Congratulations you banked all of your shit to have a minimum chance to lose anything important and are hunting down weaker players you do not have a chance to lose to. You are about as skillful as a cold sore.

How many times did you go out and fight someone of equal level and gear?
How many times did your band of 2 or 3 take on a band of 4 or 5 since you are getting the jump and they are already fighting? I bet the answer is fucking zero because you want a PvP where you can be a coward ass mother fucker with no repercussions and then pretend you are a skillful player. "You want to have fun at the expense of others and wonder why everyone doesn't hang around because you are having so much fun. You cannot be this fucking stupid."

[mutantmagnet]

To condense that point. PvP without risks is like playing poker without money.

[Lyenae]

Originally Posted by Tullaeniel

Skill isn't

Survival is a skill. There's more to the game then what happens in the middle of a PvP fight. You can stick to those games where all that matters is the moment and who give a fuck all who wins/loses. Anything outside the moment is above your level of skill.

How many times did you go out and fight someone of equal level and gear?

Lets argue more extremes to make yourself sound like you don't know fuck all about what you talking about.

[mutantmagnet]

Originally Posted by Lyenae

Lets argue more extremes to make yourself sound like you don't know fuck all about what you talking about.

He has a good point there. The biggest complaint from pvpers is that pvp becomes rarer as the stakes increase and you get into fights where you are completely outmatched or help is called in and the calvary is overwhelming in force either through player numbers, logsitics or tactical skill. There's almost no such thing as an even fight in a pvp MMO as you would find in every other multiplayer game whether it be fighting games, rts, card games, board games, etc. The only time I saw fights being even on a partially regular basis was when pop lock was achieved on Planetside.

[Lyenae]

'Even' fights aren't the domain of MMO's. They never are/were. PvP in MMO's is a combination of the moment, preparation, and timing.

The idea of making an MMO where individual fights are regulated/fair is imo, idiotic.

[Caliane]

Originally Posted by Lyenae

Survival is a skill. There's more to the game then what happens in the middle of a PvP fight. You can stick to those games where all that matters is the moment and who give a fuck all who wins/loses. Anything outside the moment is above your level of skill.



Lets argue more extremes to make yourself sound like you don't know fuck all about what you talking about.

And the best way to "survive" is to not fight.
Do you see the problem?

The goal should be to win, not to survive.
When you reward surviving, you encourage avoiding the conflict. Not playing at all, or just only engaging with a sure win.
When you reward winning, you encourage the conflict to occur. People won't take it safe and cut and run, and the will take that chance. And shouldn't that be the point of the GAME. Encourage people to take part in it?

[Inconsiderable]

Originally Posted by Tullaeniel

How many times did you go out and fight someone of equal level and gear?
How many times did your band of 2 or 3 take on a band of 4 or 5 since you are getting the jump and they are already fighting?

I bet you are also one of those guys who never really played one of those games, right?
First, you fight people of equal level, gear and (hell) even greater numbers all the time. What you call PvP (prolly leveling from 1 to xx and killing single people on the way) is a rather small part of pvp. You are constantly at WAR with people fighting over areas, objects or because they are fags. And they are all as maxxed out as you are. You constantly fight for your farming areas, you fight to protect your guildies to let them skilling out/level. Even if you are not part of one of the aggressive guilds, you cannot stay out of the fighting.
And serious, 2-3 attacking 4-5? Whats the deal? You're doing that even without having the jump when you go out kill stuff.

[Lyenae]

Originally Posted by Caliane

And the best way to "survive" is to not fight.
Do you see the problem?

I don't see the problem.

You seem be envisioning a game where every meeting is a combat situation where you should be aiming to win, and such is the only purpose behind the game. It's not. Every meeting is a potential combat situation in an MMO. PvP is there to be used when necessary to solve a problem (disagreement, insult, competition over a resource, etc). Conflict isn't so much encouraged as it is an option that may or may not be the best choice at the time.

Faction PvP games are the ones where every meeting is a forced combat situation where you want to win. Those games are gay and the PvP is pointless. If you removed the item rewards from WoW's PvP system, that entire PvP community would vaporize. What a fucking joke.

[Inconsiderable]

Originally Posted by Caliane

And the best way to "survive" is to not fight.
Do you see the problem?

The goal should be to win, not to survive.
When you reward surviving, you encourage avoiding the conflict. Not playing at all, or just only engaging with a sure win.
When you reward winning, you encourage the conflict to occur. People won't take it safe and cut and run, and the will take that chance. And shouldn't that be the point of the GAME. Encourage people to take part in it?

When there is a roaming gang of 20 people around - and you are alone. How do you win? The point of the survival he is talking about is about avoiding the fights you cannot win.
Playing smart avoids being jumped, avoids huge losses when killed and so on.

Plus you are not fighting every person you see. Means you see someone... he could be a pk, you could just want a fight or he wants to farm, maybe even group with you. Maybe he even found the item your farming and wants to trade it. Its not Green Name - ignore. Red Name - kill. It gets more difficult.

"Encourage people to take part in it?"

risk vs REWARD

[Tullaeniel]

Originally Posted by Inconsiderable

When there is a roaming gang of 20 people around - and you are alone. How do you win?

By not playing.

[Lyenae]

Tull, you choose to quit every game you can't win at instead of learning how to play them? Thanks for sharing.

[Caliane]

Originally Posted by Inconsiderable

When there is a roaming gang of 20 people around - and you are alone. How do you win? The point of the survival he is talking about is about avoiding the fights you cannot win.
Playing smart avoids being jumped, avoids huge losses when killed and so on.

Plus you are not fighting every person you see. Means you see someone... he could be a pk, you could just want a fight or he wants to farm, maybe even group with you. Maybe he even found the item your farming and wants to trade it. Its not Green Name - ignore. Red Name - kill. It gets more difficult.

"Encourage people to take part in it?"

risk vs REWARD

You completely missed my point. Did you even read my statements?

You can't win every fight of course. But you should be encouraged to try. The game should actively motivate the player into conflict. It should be part of the core design. WTF kind of pvp multiplayer game, encourages avoiding players? honestly, think about that for a moment. Surviving shouldn't be enough. Every player should want to kill others, should want to fight back when attacked, and be encouraged to not simply run away and hide.
Its not about being smart or stupid as a player. its bad game design.

I already listed the risks and rewards. Repeating that catch phrase won't somehow magically make a point. I gave risks and rewards. Try arguing which are valid and why.
What is wrong with the risk being, loss of time, , loss of control of area, loss of potential gains, and loss of pride? With rewards being, exp, control of area, gold/items from quartermaster type system, and pride? That sounds like risk vs REWARD to me.

[gremlinz273]

I need my Fallout mmo, where most pvp starts and end with a .50 BMG to the back of the head at 1500+ meters.