[MMORPG] The Lost Concepts of PvP

[Lyenae]

post data or stfu

[masteen]

Originally Posted by Lyenae

post data or stfu

WoW has more subs than a lot of small countries. How much more dataz do you need?

[Lyenae]

you can't make bullshit statistic 'vast majority' claims without backing it up.

[Duppin]

Actually, it's easier to just enjoy watching you own yourself.

[Zbkuk]

Originally Posted by Lyenae

you can't make bullshit statistic 'vast majority' claims without backing it up.

Wow subscriber numbers are all the data anyone needs to make that claim.

[Kiroy]

Originally Posted by Venjenz

There's a real simple reason - in UO, the people who didn't like PVP didn't real have a choice

Not really - I pvp'd a ton and people who didn't want to pvp had a recall macro set so they'd hit one key when they saw red and be gone. Because it was skill based, you could gold/skill/item grind in about a hundred diff places.

When I was grinding gold and didn't want pvp I'd just recall back to the bank when the fight showed up, then go somewhere else.

The mobility and skill based system of UO made pvp/griefing LESS of an issue.

That said - it was painful for noobs. A more reasonable solution would have been to give pvp immunity under a certain number of skills points 200-300 out of the 700 when I played.

[Lyenae]

Originally Posted by Zbkuk

Wow subscriber numbers are all the data anyone needs to make that claim.

you can't assume that because a lot of people play WoW that the vast majority of the MMO community agrees that each and every aspect of that game is the preferred (or even only) way of implementing every gameplay aspect in MMO's.

that's too short sighted, though typically right up the alley of the knuckleheads on these forums.

[Duppin]

Well, shit. Let me go out and survey every MMO player ever about their preferences, so I can satisfy the standard of proof of some guy on the internet.

[Tullaeniel]

Originally Posted by Lyenae

you can't assume that because a lot of people play WoW that the vast majority of the MMO community agrees that each and every aspect of that game is the preferred (or even only) way of implementing every gameplay aspect in MMO's.

that's too short sighted, though typically right up the alley of the knuckleheads on these forums.

Here's a way to get an idea about the aspect of WOW a majority care about. You show me all the guild websites with their PvP updates and front pages, and we'll compare them with guilds that focus on the PvE content in the game.

I don't think there would be one site out there talking about their AB win because it doesn't fucking matter nobody cares.

PvP on an even playing field is fun
Getting Ganked is gay.
If you prefer gay that is your lifestyle choice just don't expect everyone to hop aboard.

[Necrolyte]

Originally Posted by Tullaeniel

Here's a way to get an idea about the aspect of WOW a majority care about. You show me all the guild websites with their PvP updates and front pages, and we'll compare them with guilds that focus on the PvE content in the game.

I don't think there would be one site out there talking about their AB win because it doesn't fucking matter nobody cares.

PvP on an even playing field is fun
Getting Ganked is gay.
If you prefer gay that is your lifestyle choice just don't expect everyone to hop aboard.

I don't even agree with Lyenae about the population numbers, but your argument is just retarded. No shit people won't post about PvP accomplishments on their frontpages in WoW... even if they did care about PvP. PvP isn't the focus of WoW. However, it's still possible for the players to care about something other than PvE.

Would you check the number of DAOC or Eve or Shadowbane websites that had PvE accomplishments on their frontpage as some indicator of whether these players might care about PvE? I'm sure tons of these "PvP players" enjoy PvE games too, but they aren't going to post about PvE on their PvP MMO guild website.

[flv]

Originally Posted by Duppin

Regardless of whether that's true or not, the genre has evolved.

The vast majority of MMO players do not want that kind of game anymore, so what's the incentive for a developer to make a game to that niche

Korea.

Lineage I still has 1M players and it's a kind of mix between UO and Diablo, the market there sure loves competitive games, Lineage II has 900k players in korea also, at one point in 2006 that franchise had over 5M paying customers and they keep being the second and third most played P2P mmorpgs in the world, UO was also huge there, so are warcraft, starcraft and competitive RTSs.

Companies could try something different with Korea's backup in mind in case it didn't work in EU/US.

[Inconsiderable]

Originally Posted by Duppin

Actually, it's easier to just enjoy watching you own yourself.

I like your selfirony.

Anyway, that discussion going on here is rather pointless:

The topic is "the LOST concepts of PvP" and you people talk about pvp as it is in games right now. Even the old games had some problems, because they are old and were pretty new and experimental and everything. The trick is a balance of two things:

1) The famous "risk vs reward", wearing your good stuff should be worth it and the loss shouldnt be that bad. Personally im not much into full loot anymore, there are better ways of doing pvp penalty.
The basic idea is to trick your carebear players. Spellborns PeP System (its on the homepage, no beta leak) is such an idea. Basicly you get stronger for staying alive. Imagine getting additional damage, haste and so on for staying alive (and doing stuff like killing mobs and people). Once you die that bonus is gone completely. So player do not lose anything... they just get REWARDED for staying alive. And rewards are great! People love rewards! (Tools.)

2) "Consequences". Its my favorite word. Consequences rock. People stop being arses all the time once you can make them suffer consequences because they are not protected by hardcoded safezones anymore and have to suffer death penalties for it. People think like thrice over ganking you, because they will suffer consequences at the hand of you, your friends, your guild and your alliance for it. Hell, I got so many people kicked out of guilds to prevent wars.....
The criminal/murder system of UO or the Soul Light system of Neocron were already good tries. Now a similiar system created with taking the last several years of mmo experience into consideration... that would work wonders.
Again there needs to be a balance between the freedom of punishing the griefers/arseholes/... (vigilante justice) and the consequences (for example, the safezones in games like wow and lacking penalties actually help the griefers - therefor people coming from such games hate pvp even more).


In the end it still wont be the game for everyone, because not everyone enjoys it. I completely love Cordon bleu and think its the best food ever, but a friend of mine just doesnt like the taste of it. There are players that plain out do not like competition between players. Its not even that they are afraid of losing or suck, like many anti-pvpers. They just dont like it.
However the mmo community has more than enough players to fill several games and servers with such pvp features and enough players that a) want that kind of gameplay or b) would want it if they would know it.

[Mkopec1]

You UO nostalgic dudes have to realize that UO even changed back in the day to eliviate some of the ganking and other crap because the vast majority of people did not enjoy that type of gameplay.

So even your baby, the best PvP experience that many of you ever had in a mmo, changed away from what you believe is the best. Becaus it simply wasnt the best way to handle PvP.

[Caliane]

Let me ask another question in regards to penalties vs benefits.

Why exactly do you care if your opponent is penalized for losing?

Softcore penalties:
-wasted time
-inability to complete quests in area
-inability to collect resources
-loss of pride
-statistic loss(Ranking system)

Hardcore penalties:
-permanent death
-loss of exp
-loss of gear

Softcore benefits:
-pride
-control of area
-statistical gain

Hardcore benefits:
-looted gear
-looted gold
-exp
-gear rewarded for kills



What real benefit is there to hardcore penalties?
Mockery when someone looses something special. That's really about it.
If you want to be able to pk, and gain exp/loot from it. You don't have to have lootable bodies to do it. How about an npc that pays you for every "hear" you turn in?

Call me crazy, but isn't not winning, a big enough penalty to not want to lose? Especially, if you actually make winning rewarding in and of itself?
(wow completely failed that this of course. perhaps WAR got it better? I don't know, haven't tried it.)

Make a game where winning has real tangible benefits, and you have all the death penalties you need, without actually making people hate the game if they don't win.

Most fun pvp in wow:
fighting over terocone.

[Cynno]

Originally Posted by Mkopec1

You UO nostalgic dudes have to realize that UO even changed back in the day to eliviate some of the ganking and other crap because the vast majority of people did not enjoy that type of gameplay.

So even your baby, the best PvP experience that many of you ever had in a mmo, changed away from what you believe is the best. Becaus it simply wasnt the best way to handle PvP.

You're logic is so off it's almost sad.

When you say UO was changed because it did not handle PVP "the best way" you are wrong.

They simply changed there game to pander to more players. There is no warrant to your claim.

So please, in the future when you start spouting bullshit, stop and think about what premises you are basing your bullshit on, before pressing submit.