[MMORPG] The Lost Concepts of PvP

[Inconsiderable]

Originally Posted by Venjenz

EXACTLY!

Thanks for so eloquently summing up why there isn't the pure awesomesauce PVP game the proponents in this thread keep describing/lamenting/wishing.

Not only would I not give you that money, ...

Sorry that I skipped the rest of your posting. But you didnt get my point: You do not have the money. If you want me to write down what you asked for... you want me to spend alot of time. Time I simply do not have right now. However, if you do have the money, I can take my time to write that text.

Originally Posted by DeusEx

What I'm trying to show is that even when EvE is touted as a full player loot PvP game, it's company goes out of their way to appease the non or less PvPing part of their subscriber base, because that is where the money is.

I get that point, however I am pretty sure that your bold part is wrong or only half true. Without the PvP part ... less people would play EVE for PvE. Its the best thing about EVE really. The politics, the feel of a player controlled world. For example I started reading about EVE when the first big war thread was started on the FoH forum. Some months later I started playing or better watching eve, as the gameplay is far too passive for my taste to actually call it "playing". Even after I stopped one year later, I am still reading about the things that are going on in EVE right now - and actually care.
When I played, the mining carebears and mission runners in empire space were talking in local about bob vs goons and what they think of the war etc. There are also many people in empire/lowsec space that would like to be in 0.0 and simply do not have the strength to hold space there.

And to repeat myself .. pvp games always had safe areas. Its not the pvp you experienced on wow servers "oh red name, kill kill kill!". Actually you only fight with a rather small part of the people you meet. Most people are just as afraid of being attacked by you then you are of being attacked by them. Lyenae had at least one pretty good posting explaining that part before that carebear fag running amok in here called him a lowskill ganker again.
People want to level/skill up just like the rest. People/Guilds that kill everything are known as PKs pretty fast. Local warnings, people grouping just to hunt them down or simply to protect themselves... its all part of the game. People just have to behave like REAL MEN instead of whiny little bitches and get their act together. I mean.. look at the latest games like AoC. On the pvp server wasnt even any death penalty. And when you killed 10 people who were leveling solo on the SAME SPOT. They called you names in the chat, they were sitting down and insulting you, you simply tried to kill one mob before they died so they can complete their quest over time...

Wtf? If that happens to me I just group with the other people that got killed and problem solved. Or I call the guild cavallery. Or hell, I just find another spot. How stupid can those people be?
So... back to the PvP game thing. The real pvp starts on the good loot/level spots, usually high level. And of course the wars between guilds. And the PKs vs Antis. You raid a well known spot thats awesome for low levels and make a little slaughter and bam the big friends from the guilds or the Antis show up and you got a good fight.

The thing most to all people that never experienced such an enviroment do not understand is that it doesnt work like the pvp servers for pve games. You dont fight everything you see. Not every zone is a nonstop killing ground, even thou the players would have the freedom to make it so to a certain degree.
The difference is the freedom you have as player to do what you want to do and not to do what your level and the tight restrictions force you to do.

Funny thing is that full loot and no safe zones work against griefing while pvp servers with no death penalty and some safe zones do work towards griefing.
Just imagine the typical griefer of the old wow pvp server days. The guy hit level 60, got a decent amount of epics maybe and runs into level 20-50 areas and kills the helpless people there. Not only cant they fight back (lowlevel cannot damage highlevels for a reason nobody understands, but good game mechanic led to alot of griefing), after dozens and dozens of people got killed... finally rescue arrives. Another level 60 that just kills the newb griefer. Now what? After griefing the whole zone for 2 hours, he just hearthstones into safety and does it again the next day.
Imagine player loot or limited player loot and no safe zones. The loot he can take from the level 20 player is worthless, would be replaced every hour anyway and depending on the server rules he couldnt loot a single item.
Now the rescue comes, kills him.. and there the epics go. He ports away, is hunted down and there his equipment goes again..!

[Caliane]

Alot of different points there. a few crossing over each other, Inconsiderable.

Like the EVE question. We are talking about elements of pvp not pve.
Politics, player controlled world are good elements of pvp, that Im sure no one would disagree with.

In regards to safe areas. You point out that players only fight a small portion, and that most people are as afraid of being attacked as of attacking.
My issue is, how is that a good thing? I can understand that a nonstop slaughterfest of everyone killing everyone at all times isn't exactly ideal either.
But every experiance I have seen in a loot pvp game is large scale avoiding conflict.
That is probably why people seem to think that pvp is so meaningful. You go three months with no combat, then finally have a guild war and it does make that combat seem sweeter.

And I would avoid comparisons to WoW. No one is claiming wow as a model for pvp. (Except maybe fighting over resources, and perhaps Azuregos as a world pvp boss.)

[Zehn - Vhex]

Nothing new has been posted on this subject in ages anyways. It's the same three arguments over and over again just with longer and longer "Well I think that...." prefaces. Occasionally you get some batshit insane motherfucker like Inconsiderable going off on about who the fuck knows what.

Here's your themes, round and round they go.

1 PvP is meaningless without penalties.
2 PvP doesn't always have to be about pking
3 WoW pvp is boring.
4 Anything but WoW pvp is doomed to failure.
5 WoW is pvp-lite, there are no penalties.
6 People don't want penalties, so says the almighty dollar.
7 Goto 1.

The alternate ruleset servers is the only hope for the pk-pvp crowd. A game fundamentally based around it will never hit the mainstream for a long time and it will become a self-cleaning oven of hate that eventually dries up and dies as everybody realizes that their friends are still playing WoW.

[Inconsiderable]

Originally Posted by Caliane

You point out that players only fight a small portion, and that most people are as afraid of being attacked as of attacking.
My issue is, how is that a good thing? I can understand that a nonstop slaughterfest of everyone killing everyone at all times isn't exactly ideal either.
But every experiance I have seen in a loot pvp game is large scale avoiding conflict.
That is probably why people seem to think that pvp is so meaningful. You go three months with no combat, then finally have a guild war and it does make that combat seem sweeter.

It becomes meaningful when you fight for a reason other then "he clicked faction x on character screen and now has a red name". You have a real reason to kick someones ass and (depending on the game) take his stuff / give him death penalties. Maybe he insulted you, ninjalooted, scammed or did something similiar to a friend or the guild he is in are known as RPKs or or or or or.
And it is not like everybody is running away and nobody is fighting at all, the way you make it sound. The running and avoiding combat part is usually when heavily outnumbered or when solo. If you know you cannot win - why fight? When people know they can win they will fight. And they fight when it matters. If they want that levelspot they will fight for it. If they want to keep that guild keep they will fight for it.

And obviously there are the PKs.

But I am pretty sure its not the best scenario for solo pvp. Solo there is the running / avoiding, and getting ganked / jumped + PKed is a larger part of the gameplay if you are not careful. But thats why you have guilds and friends in a Massively Multiplayer Game.

[hammerdown]

Originally Posted by Inconsiderable

Funny thing is that full loot and no safe zones work against griefing while pvp servers with no death penalty and some safe zones do work towards griefing.
Just imagine the typical griefer of the old wow pvp server days. The guy hit level 60, got a decent amount of epics maybe and runs into level 20-50 areas and kills the helpless people there. Not only cant they fight back (lowlevel cannot damage highlevels for a reason nobody understands, but good game mechanic led to alot of griefing), after dozens and dozens of people got killed... finally rescue arrives. Another level 60 that just kills the newb griefer. Now what? After griefing the whole zone for 2 hours, he just hearthstones into safety and does it again the next day.
Imagine player loot or limited player loot and no safe zones. The loot he can take from the level 20 player is worthless, would be replaced every hour anyway and depending on the server rules he couldnt loot a single item.
Now the rescue comes, kills him.. and there the epics go. He ports away, is hunted down and there his equipment goes again..!

Sounds good on paper but unfortunately the level 60 griefer isn't doing it for loot, he's doing it purely for entertainment. They'll go kill level 2 players with the cheapest vendor bought equipment they can if it means easy kills.

Griefers are also playing a lot more on average than most of the casual players they prey upon, so recovery in a full item loot server isn't going to be a major problem for them unless death at high level is inherently designed to be a major setback, which is going to turn a lot of players off.

Your scenario might work great when everybody is social because solo (or duo, or a small friend group of) players are going to flee from this game the tenth time they get gang banged by a roaming pk guild, everyone plays the same amount, be it 5 hours a week or 60 hours a week, and when a game is designed in such a way that a death at high level takes a while to recover from, but none of those things are practical. I'd love to see it happen, though, if only to try it out.

I still think the eve online model could work extremely well in a non-boring space game. Insert that model into a fantasy MMO and let's see what happens.

[Inconsiderable]

Originally Posted by hammerdown

Sounds good on paper but unfortunately the level 60 griefer isn't doing it for loot, he's doing it purely for entertainment. They'll go kill level 2 players with the cheapest vendor bought equipment they can if it means easy kills.

Yea, but it doesnt matter WHY he is doing it. He gains nothing, his victims lose nothing of value. But he can lose ALOT. And he can be killed and looted all the time for being a fag, not just once.

The roaming pk guilds are less of a matter early on. Guards (example: City Guards in UO, Concord in EVE) can create safe(r) zones, depending on the style of the game you have nothing valueable to lose (or eve style: never fly a ship you cannot afford to lose) and finally the Anti-PKs which can be lured with a halfdecent pvp system based around such an enviroment.

Agree about the EVE part. Basicly all I want :b

[nustabut]

[gnomad]

Originally Posted by nustabut

....video of loser...

Ok, WTF??

Man you really prove what winners PKers are. So what types of grades did you get in school? D's?

You come off in that video even dumber then the fry clerk at the local Utopia Burger that has to have pictures on his register to ring up a sale.

[nustabut]

thats not me in the video, retard.

[Horse]

Originally Posted by nustabut

thats not me in the video, retard.

I liked the part in that video towards the end where you were playing the game and also singing the song. Wat FX did u use on ur voice to get it sexy like that. PM pls.

[Lyenae]

Originally Posted by hammerdown

Sounds good on paper but unfortunately the level 60 griefer isn't doing it for loot, he's doing it purely for entertainment.

Killing people non-stop isn't entertaining. There is virtually no entertainment value AT ALL from killing lowbies in any game just for the sake of killing lowbies. It gets old extremely quickly.

It's when the "victims" start crying/bitching/talking shit on forums that it becomes interesting and evolves into griefing which some people feed off of. Not the rules, the PVP mechanics, etc. Those have absoultey nothing to fucking doing with it.

People talking shit.

When I've been PvP active (participating in roll groups, ganking, starting wars, etc), it's the fact that people talk shit. FACT: You don't talk shit, you get ignored. You become a very boring target to the vast majority of griefers. You show people that you are more then just a target (social skills are big) and people who attack you might even end up being friends. I've done this countless times in SB.

But... if you start bragging about how awesome you think you are, your guild is, your alt is, etc or how shitty the person/guild/alt is who fucked you up and you will get your shit pushed in. That's when people take it upon themselves to curbstomp you repeatedly.

Those 'sore losers' are the ones that get fucked up until they are frustrated and leave the server. Shit talkers who can't back anything up in game. A lot of Joe Casual are shit talkers in game and irl. They have low (or no) skills in game but can run their mouth with the best of the them.

Fuck that's even the reason WoW refuses to this day to allow communicatoin with the other side. Your average fucking player is a shit talker who has too much pride to shut the fuck up

And, of course, they'd fucking fail in a real PvP game. Fail fucking hard till they quit in droves. I've been able to negotiate, talk, reason with virtually every enemy to become a 'low profile' or even make friends. Does it happen instantly? No. Do I do it with everyone? Nope, divide and conquer. That's one reason I've flourished on PvP servers. I socialize half my enemies, and then isolate the rest.

I think the shit talking issue is a cultural problem for one. People don't know when the shut the fuck up. Secondly alot of MMO tutorials/guides do not cover the social aspects of PvP games to any degree of depth.

[Zehn - Vhex]

People don't know when the shut the fuck up

Nah...too easy.

[Fammaden]

That video may be one of the greatest things I've ever seen. HAH! Wow.

[mutantmagnet]

Originally Posted by Inconsiderable

Funny thing is that full loot and no safe zones work against griefing while pvp servers with no death penalty and some safe zones do work towards griefing.

Bolded part is not true. Tibia I believe had to institute safe zones where new accounts were spawned because they were getting camped by veterans.

Freedom to kill allows some people to act like bullies that are too harmful for the game. That said I still see a future for pvp oriented games being competitive and selling well. The asian market makes it clear not everyone has the same cultural hang ups on pvp.

[Venjenz]

Lyenae, that was a fine breakdown of who falls prey to the Gank Squad, but you fail to connect two important dots. Yes, the shit talkers of the world are the ones most commonly abused in PVP games, but if Barrens and SW general chat have shown over the years, there are literally millions of shit talking idiots with more money/time than sense. Design the game that effectively chases them off or forces them to "see the light" and change their ways to non-shit talking idiot, and you design a game that seeks to thin its subscription numbers BY DESIGN.

The crux of the issue is that the PVP game everyone in this thread is envisioning would be palatable only to a very limited audience, and that limited audience would narrow over time to a select hardcore group, probably of very skilled and dedicated palyers, but too small to pay the bills. Think Rallos Zek totals versus the bluebie server totals. Think EVE numbers versus WoW numbers. Therein lies the problem.