[MMORPG] The Lost Concepts of PvP

[Inconsiderable]

Originally Posted by Sythrak

Every other MMO out there type of competition.

I do not think LOTRO and lets say Fury or Darkfall or even WAR were going for the same target audience.

[Ogun Nagoura]

These arguements about how tough or easy a game is are pretty irrelevant as far as I can see so long as you have these video games produced by companies like Blizzard and Mythic who have the lions share of their developers working in Los Angeles and San Diego. These two places are are extremely expensive to live in. According to the San Diego Metropolitan, in March 2007 "The minimum annual household income first-time buyers need to purchase a median-priced home at $472,000 in San Diego is about $100,000." The average cost of a house in Los Angeles is around $575,000 as of 2007.

This means that the devs HAVE to be making a crap load of cash just to be able to drive to work from a house and not a cardboard box. So, they have a monentary drive to make their games as middle road as they can so they get that many more subscribers.

The only way I can see that a game could be created with the criteria the majority of you serious players want is that it be developed in a much cheaper part of the country to have programmers live; say like in Texas or Oklahoma. Until such a move is made I think this e-z mode of MMO's is going to only get more development and the minority of hardcore gamers are going to get marginalized.

[Lyenae]

Originally Posted by Cynno

Yep, you finally verified it for me, there are actually fucking retards that actually think with this logic in team based games.

I was hoping I was wrong all this time.

Lmao, I'm not one of those sheep who fights in squads on the front lines that struggle to get past a 2:1 K/D. I learned my lesson after I realized squads = grenade bait, and the fact that my K/D is so good I always get swapped to the losing team, which means I had to fight to get my caps back.

[Jovec]

Originally Posted by Sharmai

The amount of honor I earn in WoW is 90% time 5% skill 5% luck.

The exception being arena where its 85% skill 10 % luck 5% time.

Eh, try 25% skill, 25% class you rolled vs bracket, 45% matchup, 5% luck.

Lum the mad, who now works for NC Soft put it this way: "PvP means 20% are schooling the other 80%", therefore a meaningful PvP remains a delusion. He also mentioned the situation in post Trammel UO. The wolves didn't want to fight the other wolves that remained with them on the PvP servers, they wanted the sheep that chose to leave them alone.

This is pretty much the core issue. Every one wants to win, no one wants to lose, and penalties are only fun when they hit someone else.

Besides, stronger penalties necessitate better design, which no MMO wants to have to live up to. Take WoW - do you think the current bullshit rogue and druid overpoweredness in PvP, especially in the small scale, would fly if there were real penalties to death?

[Dumar]

chubbyjesus knows EXACTLY what a good mmorpg should be. EXACTLY.

[USAWrestler]

this thread reminds me of Sam deathwalker for some reason.

[Ogun Nagoura]

Originally Posted by Lyenae

I think if you want good PvP games, you need to follow your gaming vision and completely ignore the 25+ year old pessimistic bunch of shitfucks who preach that MMO's need to keep getting easier. Games need to be designed for teens, the way they've always been. Don't cater to bitches who don't ahve the 4+ hours necessary to play a game. They will adapt the way they've always adapted the last 30 years of Video games.

Wake up kid. NO ONE is going to dump MILLIONS of dollars into a tunnel vision game like that in the MMO genre anymore. EvE was one of a kind and it will never be repeated on a mass scale like WoW cause you will never get the subscription rates needed to be sucessful.

Here's how it works junior from the gaming Board of Directors in all the big game publishing companies:

You want hardcore PvP you play a console game or FPS on your PC.
You want immersive community with people developing characters with depth and longevity? You make an Everquest 1 pre-Velious where E. Commonlands and Kelethin become a center for trade and interaction for the whole in game world.

MMO's by design do not pull FoH'ers in the millions. There aren't that many people in real life who can play like they do, and that means they can't pay enough money to game developers to pay say Furor's salary if he wants to live in a nice house, provide a good income for his future wife/kids, pay kids college fund, save for his retirement so he's doesn't have to work until he's 75 etc. You want an MMO that's a FPS with "a little more depth" well sorry to rain on your parade but they don't exsist, and until <25 yr olds can pay $80/month for a game you won't get your gold sticker.

[Inconsiderable]

Originally Posted by Ogun Nagoura

You want hardcore PvP you play a console game or FPS on your PC.

Too bad its not hardcore pvp. The part that makes pvp in mmos great is missing there.

[Tancred]

How many times can the same simple message be repeated in different ways?

It seems the PvP hardcore want PvP "that matters".
For the vast majority of gamers it's just a game and it will never "matter". And they will go elsewhere if hardcore PvP with penalties are imposed on them.

You can yell about how everyone else "doesn't understand" all you like and it doesn't change a damn thing.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Originally Posted by Tancred

How many times can the same simple message be repeated in different ways?

Considering this thread is more then 4 posts long, quite a few it seems.

[Venjenz]

Originally Posted by Tancred

It seems the PvP hardcore want PvP "that matters".
For the vast majority of gamers it's just a game and it will never "matter". And they will go elsewhere if hardcore PvP with penalties are imposed on them.

This is the point I was trying to make with regards to competition. In the 1999 world of UO, they really had no good graphical "elsewhere" to go to if the hardcore PVP annoyed them, so they become the sheep for the PK wolves. That's how EQ siphoned off UO subs, it gave a more fun, less annoying and far less punitive alternative to the less than thuglyfe hardocre PKs on UO.

Yeah, there was some competition before EQ, but none as pretty and well develoed until EQ, so UO won by default.

Now, a game with hardcore, meaningful PVP does exist and it has a small, niche audience called the EVE playerbase, of which only a subset is actively engaged in the meaningful PVP part of the game. When GHSC pulled that corp theft and assassination thing, most of the victims quit the game not long after that incident, and most petitioned to have CCP give them a "do-over" prior to quitting. That was hardcore, and it reduced the population who were pissed that years of play went up in smoke when that shit got real.

The bottom line is, in meaningful, hardcore PVP, a small subgroup will become dominant, and the larger segment of the playerbase will be paying all the penalties, and they'll hate it, and they'll go play something else, just as Tancred and others point out. For every one player who kicks ass, 10 others will be their fodder, and the fodder shit gets old quick.

So who wants to develop a game that by design will drive away weaker players and cater to a very small, niche group of gamers?

[Dumar]

Originally Posted by Tancred

How many times can the same simple message be repeated in different ways?

It seems the PvP hardcore want PvP "that matters".
For the vast majority of gamers it's just a game and it will never "matter". And they will go elsewhere if hardcore PvP with penalties are imposed on them.

You can yell about how everyone else "doesn't understand" all you like and it doesn't change a damn thing.

it will matter. it doesn't matter as much as losing your house or job, but it matters about as much as going to vegas and blowing a few big bills on a high limit game. most people would understand.

people don't want games anymore. they just want something where they can sit idle and fill up some type of advancement, whether its bars or numbers. they don't want to lose or lose anything. they really don't care about winning to be honest. they just want to progress. for some unfathomable reason progress is more important than the gameplay or integrity of the game itself. losing something you've gained is something that they can't conceive. the ONLY important thing in a massively multiplayer game or ANY new game (game.. laugh) is to fill up bars and increase numbers. win/loss, making a difference and fighting for something that matters is not a part of the culture anymore.

don't give me bullshit about it's a business either. that's an excuse for this garbage industry. it's the truth, but it's still an excuse.

[Lyenae]

Originally Posted by Tancred

vast majority

Please fucking stfu about 'vast majority'... Duppin Jr.

[Venjenz]

Originally Posted by Dumar

don't give me bullshit about it's a business either. that's an excuse for this garbage industry. it's the truth, but it's still an excuse.

The point of any business is to earn profit. That's not bullshit, it's a fundamental economic truth.

If the meaningful game you envision is so important, and business is a bunch of horseshit, then why don't you and a crew of fellow like-minded purists go make this game of yours? Clearly profit does not matter, only making the good game. paying bills, all that nonsense...fuck that shit, it's all about a meaningful, important, pure MMO experience...right?

So quit bitching, and go make the fucking thing already. Revolutionize the garbage industry!!

[Zehn - Vhex]

Originally Posted by Dumar

it will matte...

Roleplay Chat Rooms
Chatroom - Online Roleplaying - RPG Sites - GameWyrd
onlineroleplay.com : Chat Rooms And IRC
Dark Forest Role Play Chat

It's like I'm some kind of genius. All these role playing games featuring -everything- you want out of games and yet you refuse to play.

It's almost like you want to be miserable just so you can whine about how no game can ever live up to your expectations when at your very fingertips are dozens...nay thousands of games just waiting for you out there.

You can be anything you want, do anything you want. The goals and rewards are completely defined by the community. Every day is a new day with events and encounters defined only by your imagination. No rules, no restrictions, no limits. Do you want to slay a dragon today? Sure why not! Do you want to build a log cabin and stockpile kilts? Go ahead! Do you want to have a romantic affair with a vampire that can change into a butterfly? It's all up to you buddy.

It's absolutely perfect. And yet you refuse to partake in it.

Why?

Because you, like everyone else, like filling up little bar after little bar.

So quit your fucking bitching, man up, and get the fuck out of here.