Mark Jacobs (EA Mythic) on MMOG design & costs

[Bixxby]

Originally Posted by Lost Ranger

Blizzard made Mechwarrior MMO?

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How will I collect wolf pelts if I shoot them with a missile?

[Lost Ranger]

Originally Posted by Jayblah

I was particularly impressed with his acknowledgement that Trials of Atlantis was a disappointment. I left DAoC before ToA was released, but its been said by members of this board more than enough times that ToA was awful. Its not often you see a developer point out their own failings.

They didn't just accept their own failings they did their best to fix them as well. DAoC is the only game I know of that made special servers that completely removed one expansion entirely because their players asked for it. I really liked his NIH comment because it is so true. They tried to make DAoC something it wasn't and it bit them on the ass.

[CylusSoulreaver]

Does anyone know the sub breakdown between Europe and NA for Age of Conan? I'd be interested to see how many Euro subs they had in regards to whether WAR's localization can compete with them over yonder.

[Aegorian]

I understand the whole "competing with WoW now and not at launch" theory, but as a gamer i just dont buy that. The only thing that should differentiate a new MMO vs an old MMO at this point is the amount of content available. The base mechanics should be near the same, if not better in some respects. Ideas from past MMOs should have evolved, making newer games more attractive in that respect. You can always add more content as you patch, but you cant make up for shitty base mechanics or general lack of mechanics. That's why i think WAR will be in a great position come launch time. They've mimiced some of the best MMO mechanics as well as incorporating their own new ones. If they can quickly deliver good patches to correct bugs, consistently improve the UI/performance and create new areas of content over the next year, there's no reason they cannot be a very large MMO.

MMOs are built to satisfy the gamers need for long-term fun. The base mechanics of a game are what allow you to inherantly make the content fun. Just keep pushing out updates like the one forthcoming for open beta and i see a very bright future for WAR. The biggest threat Mythic has right now is themselves in that they could bask in their initial success and lose sight of the consistent stream of newness that the MMO community craves.

[Dashal]

Originally Posted by CylusSoulreaver

Does anyone know the sub breakdown between Europe and NA for Age of Conan? I'd be interested to see how many Euro subs they had in regards to whether WAR's localization can compete with them over yonder.

I dont have the breakdown but isnt Warhammer like a big deal in Europe? Seems from the podcasts Mythic did that they had huge receptions in France and Germany especially.

[ToeMissile]

I understand the whole "competing with WoW now and not at launch" theory

You have to compare what is currently available, but also should keep in mind how it was at launch. IMO, they both matter.

[woqqqa]

Originally Posted by Bixxby

How will I collect wolf pelts if I shoot them with a missile?

Because of scorching and explosions, only 1 out of 400 wolves will drop an intact pelt.

[Araxen]

Originally Posted by Dashal

In response to that article:

Mark Jacobs interview Sept 2 - Page 4 - Warhammer Forums

(and Mythic hasn't been immune from this *cough* ToA)

I was a little worried they didn't view TOA as a mistake. I have alot more confidence they won't make the same mistake with Warhammer.

[Ard]

Originally Posted by woqqqa

Because of scorching and explosions, only 1 out of 400 wolves will drop an intact pelt.

Now that's not true. It'll work exactly the same as it did for their father's father's father's... the pelts will drop in neat and shiny little leather bags that appear magically next to their corpses.

[Lenardo]

Originally Posted by Saban

Remember when WoW launched? Who had any guess as to the sub numbers it would have even a year later.

Saban, Several experienced mmo players that read this site(me for one-thott, others) and other mmo forums (from ao,eq.uo etc) that were in wow's beta were saying it was going to be around the size of lineage/lineage 2 within a year.

none of us thought 11+ MILLION, but we were thinking in the million to 2 million range (mostly cuz we thought the koreans would eat wow up-we were partially wrong but the US and EU areas made up the difference rather handily)

for warhammer, if the quality is there, and the content is there, it'll do conan initial sales, it ultimately is what he said,,, 6 weeks post release and 6 months post release, those two dates are the true "was it successful" mark for a mmo

6 weeks = inital retention rate
6 months = numbers

i am sure most of us remember EQ had something around an 80% retention rate for the first year

wow had similar numbers.

no other current mmo has maintained a significantly higher retention rate lately

conan's was sub 50%
lotro's i am not entirely sure on but i think it was around 50% as well

if war can maintain a retention rate >60% then it'll be the 2nd largest US based mmo around

[Mahes]

Originally Posted by Bixxby

How will I collect wolf pelts if I shoot them with a missile?

Small range lasers? Use prescision strikes when attempting to collect pelts.

Save the missles for the goddamn chinese farmers who are attempting to do the same collection quests.

[Dandain]

I think 2 people in my WoW raiding guild purchased Conan (out of about 50 people). We are probably going to purchase between 10-20 Warhammer boxes. We are a very PvE oriented guild, but have a few BG pre-forms. I think Warhammer could easily be our off night game. I think the genius is that potentially War is going to co-exist with WoW offering different strengths, and a reason for people to hold simultaneous subs.

[Dandain]

Originally Posted by Bixxby

How will I collect wolf pelts if I shoot them with a missile?

You will collect armor plating from outlaw mech pilots, not wolf pelts. Some mech's will be totally destroyed when their reactors go critical. and you won't have anything to salvage.

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by Horse

No need to mention old players and their adherence to years of involvement, but advantage going to the established entity is not necessary. Remember that at one point WoW was the new game competing with the old reliables.

True. But the old reliables were, a lot of the time, completely broken games.

My bet is on the game that keeps up the polish, replayability, accessibility, and still manages to keep older players on course (which yeah, will piss off the elitists) with gear a notch below, but not terribly below, high end gear. Which is exactly what WoW does to maintain it's levels.

What will make or break WAR in my opinion will be based on quality and polish. Mark Jacob's doesn't exactly have the best track record for this when DAOC was launched with Broken RvR, a broken relic system, and the entire 35-50 game non existant nor itemized. And unfortunately, EA doesn't exactly have this track record either. If they release a substandard game with regards to polish, and if any highly regarded features are "bugged", it will take about 2-3 months to get it on par, and that is right when Lich King will come out. Right at the time people would get tired of waiting and go back to something they know will be fully fleshed out.

The 1-60 game in WoW is still very much active depending on the server. I have been to some where it isn't around, I have been to others where I am literally fighting for mobs like back in 2004. So that is going to be a pretty subjective measurement.

[Cantatus]

Originally Posted by AladainAF

Bullseye.

Believe it or not, FFXI is the only MMO I am aware of where all released content from its multiple expansions previous to the current (zilart/promathia/aht urghan) is still heavily populated, and needed to progress to the end game, and not bring thrown away. Games like Everquest -- absolutely no one ever needs to go to places like kurns tower, howling stones, south karana, lake rathe, east karana, etc. You can spend all day in West Karana and probably have less than 10 people show up.

That's what makes FFXI's system so genius. They're the only MMOG I've encountered that seems to make it a goal to never replace the content they've designed. Every time they add a new job to the game, it just gives people a new reason to go back and play through the newbie areas. Not only does this make it so the content isn't obsolete, but it also makes it much easier for new players to get into the game.

The only other game I've seen this in is CoH, but that's not necessarily a design feature as it is the flexibility of the costume system and the lack of endgame encouraging people to start new characters.

I recognize you say that's a good thing, but I think its bad myself. I think its disappointing where the "mainstream" MMOs (WoW, EQ2, and now EQ1) are going these days - to a model of "Expansion 2 100% obsoletes Expansion 1". All it does it make less content available to guilds, because going back to do old content is never worth it. Looking at the state of EQ1 now, for example, groupable XP mobs drop items very very comparable to previous expansion raid gear. It wouldn't surprise me if we saw 600-700hp/mana items dropping off XP mobs in this next expansion.

Just sucks, really. So much content, but so little use.

I'll really never understand why so many MMOGs go this route. They spend so much time on the early content, and then they replace it every year or two when an expansion is released. That just results in dozens of unused zones, and I have no idea why they think that looks good. If I'm subscribing to a new MMOG and see all the starter zones near my character as empty, I'm just going to assume the game isn't doing well and isn't worth subscribing to.