MMORPG's and content

[SlyyDaugg]

Originally Posted by Tullaeniel

I am still a fan of The Vision™ way of thinking -

My wife and I were discussing this very topic tonight.

Pretty sure we both agree with you. Something about "You're in OUR world now" really works for me. I'm tired of ez-mode, period.

I mean I'm seriously about zzzzzed out.

[Lost Ranger]

Originally Posted by Tullaeniel

Granted the subs are rolling in...

Anyone know if this happens to be true still? I have not kept up on the numbers for a while now. I would imagine it can't be to many more years before the game begins its decline in subs.

[Wilfan]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

It's not self-selected. It's all guilds that have cleared about 1/2 of Karazhan. So yes, nearly 100% of the guilds that have started Karazhan have completed it.

Nope. Nearly 100% of guilds that have killed any of the instanced raid bosses have killed something in Karazhan and at least one guild member decided to wear at least one boss drop for a few days (that's how kills are tracked).

[Siddar]

Originally Posted by SlyyDaugg

My wife and I were discussing this very topic tonight.

Pretty sure we both agree with you. Something about "You're in OUR world now" really works for me. I'm tired of ez-mode, period.

I mean I'm seriously about zzzzzed out.

How was orignal EQ not easy mode? Other then corpse runs I dont think anything in orignal EQ would be viewed as very hard by todays standards.

People were just stupid newbies back then and thats why game seemed harder then it actualy was. Easy mode happens once you stopped being a stupid newb and you can never really go back once it happens.

[Lusiphur]

The real issue is that people champion 'their' kind of game while merrily forgetting that MMO's need other players.

Just look at VG with its enforced grouping. The game can never recover because not enough people play it to support the enforced grouping mechanic. If they make it too solo friendly then the few who do play it will scream bloody murder and leave. Catch 22.

The argument is that MMO's dont have to be 'one size fits all', I disagree. There have to be enough people playing to make you want to play. Every niche game has the same complaint, barren servers.

A game needs people playing it to feel 'alive'. You get more people playing if you don't smash them in the nuts for logging on.

This whole WoW is for idiots bs really needs to stop. WoW players are smarter than the 'hardcore 4 lyfe' idiots because they don't need their MMO's to sodomise them with a baseball bat to feel that they are having a decent playing experience.

[Loco]

Originally Posted by Siddar

How was orignal EQ not easy mode? Other then corpse runs I dont think anything in orignal EQ would be viewed as very hard by todays standards.

People were just stupid newbies back then and thats why game seemed harder then it actualy was. Easy mode happens once you stopped being a stupid newb and you can never really go back once it happens.

While you're correct that games get easier over time, EQ was really good at punishing you when you failed, and I loved that. People also tend to forget just how frustrating it was. A few things that I remember the most:

- Prior to the ingame maps, navigation was a bitch consisting of sense heading and /loc spamming, and just knowing at which rock to turn left. I had a binder full of maps that I finally threw away last year.

- It was genuinely hard to see at night if you were a newbie and not one of the races that had infravision handed to you.

- Naked corpse runs and experience loss. Remember when you died while on a corpse run? And having to run back to the very place you died even in the deepest pit of a dungeon... unless you had someone drag your corpse or had a necro summon it. It sucked dying in EQ.

- The brutal raid recovery time after a wipe. *Cough Plane of Hate Cough* And don't forget the "Oh shit, I forgot I was bound here and have to run 30 minutes just to get back over here" run. "Hope I find a cleric to rez me so I gain my level back." Did I mention it sucked dying in EQ?

- Solo was just not feasible for all classes. Casters had it SO easy compared to melee. Binds, gates, rezzes, ports, invis, SoW, snares, roots, levi... etc etc

- How about those dungeons where you HAD to gate out? I played a monk and remember never venturing anywhere near a few dungeons (Charasis, Sol Ro, etc) unless I had a wizard/druid nearby. It took them way too long to add the 'phone home' button on the login screen.

- Remember what it was like actually having downtime in solo/group play? Sitting still watching that blue bar, and asking the group what their mana was at, because you couldn't see it? That shit would never fly today.

- Tradeskills were an absolute bitch to raise in some cases and provided very little benefit for the work involved. Same with most quests... but [epic quests] lived up to their name.

The kill/XP/level/gear system in any game isn't hard, it's the amount of crap the game puts you through on the way that gives it flavor.

[Ukerric]

Originally Posted by Loco

- The brutal raid recovery time after a wipe. *Cough Plane of Hate Cough*

One and a half hour insertion in Plane of Fear. The only cleric in raid. Epic..., wait isn't that this flaming sword paladins get?

To my dying day, I will remember the pile of corpses landing at my feet, and me screaming "goddamn, loot your corpse when you have been raised, or I'll waste my mana".

[Danth]

"Just look at VG with its enforced grouping. The game can never recover because not enough people play it to support the enforced grouping mechanic."

Now, is that a problem with the grouping mechanic? I think not--especially since you certainly *can* effectively solo in VG. Rather, the problem is having maybe 1500 players at peak hours on servers designed for 5000. A game's servers have to be sized to suit its population. You may need other players, but you don't need four or five thousand. Everquest did perfectly fine--and even felt crowded--with two thousand or so. Air Warrior was bustling and thriving with server populations in the low hundreds.

That said, I don't support the creation of 'niche games' because they're inherently wasteful (As Vanguard will attest). I support varied server types instead, the feasibility of which has already been demonstrated elsewhere. Just because the online RPG's have not yet adopted that design doesn't mean it's not a good idea--remember, they were slow in adopting 3D world design, too.

Look at almost any industry that sells some sort of product. Television networks offer multiple programs. Restaurants offer varied menus. Automakers sell multiple models. I can go on, but I don't need to. Sooner or later the online gaming genre will branch out in much the same manner as all of the above. Blizzard's offering generic Warcraft and nothing else strikes me as similar to Henry Ford's proverbial "any color you want, so long as it's black" mantra--an archaic way of doing business that'll inevitably change for the better in due time.

I simply would prefer that to change sooner rather than later.

Danth

[Slick Willey]

Originally Posted by Lost Ranger

Anyone know if this happens to be true still? I have not kept up on the numbers for a while now. I would imagine it can't be to many more years before the game begins its decline in subs.

I believe Blizzard recently announced hitting 11 million subscribers (or 10.7, 10.8, etc., you get the picture). So yeah, the subs keep rolling in and WOTLK will probably keep boosting that number up. Lets say there was a cataclysmic drop of 50% (something highly unlikely to occur just suddenly). So they are floating around 5 million to 6 million. What's their closest competitor again?

[Bongk]

Originally Posted by Slick Willey

So they are floating around 5 million to 6 million. What's their closest competitor again?

Why do people always fawn over sub numbers and act like highest subs means it is the best.

AOL had the most "subs" for 10 years were they the best ISP?

McDonalds sells the most burgers "subs", is theirs the best? etc, etc.

In most any industry the one who has the most "subs" is not the best, simply the easiest, most marketed or most well known.

I am not saying is not a great game, but people who base it being "the best" on its subs are idiots.

[Dumar]

who wants to hear my opinion on this, anybody?

[Bongk]

Originally Posted by Dumar

who wants to hear my opinion on this, anybody?

sure, we need to get you lower than -200 internets! Can't have Makata passing you by now, can we?

[Hake]

In theory you can release a new dungeon every day, create new crafting receipe, make new quests, design new zones and pop some new boss... but in reality you have to design and make these things. The process of making a game is not just inputing some number in a new weapon data and then giving this weapon to a new enemy with more life. Everything you add in a game, and especially in an mmo is going to interact with thousands of people, with all their skills, with the lore, the AI, the graphics, and so on. You can't just hire 100 designers, artists and level designers and ask them to make 100 new "levels".

With a given gameplay you always have limits. Take for example Portal (valve), of course you could make more levels, but would they be different from the one given in the game ? Sure you can do more, but is it going to be different from what you already have ? If you want to make something really new in your game (what most people call content), you as well have to create new mechanics, new gameplay elements, things that interact differently, or at least that doesn't look like the one in the previous zone/level. Considering everything that already have been done in a game like WoW, it takes skills to find something new, new storylines, new ennemies, new skills and talents.

I have to agree that Blizzard for instance takes a lot of time to release a new expansion, and that increasing content rate would be nice for WoW players. They are slow as fuck to release something, but at least you know that when they do, it is good. One the other side, you've got the EQ style, which is basically about copying what's already existing and just increasing the numbers (more life, more damage, new particle effect...). I don't know what's best, but myself I would go for the Blizzard way, and just stop playing in between content release.

[Ninen]

Originally Posted by Loco

While you're correct that games get easier over time, EQ was really good at punishing you when you failed, and I loved that. People also tend to forget just how frustrating it was. A few things that I remember the most:

- Prior to the ingame maps, navigation was a bitch consisting of sense heading and /loc spamming, and just knowing at which rock to turn left. I had a binder full of maps that I finally threw away last year.

- It was genuinely hard to see at night if you were a newbie and not one of the races that had infravision handed to you.

- Naked corpse runs and experience loss. Remember when you died while on a corpse run? And having to run back to the very place you died even in the deepest pit of a dungeon... unless you had someone drag your corpse or had a necro summon it. It sucked dying in EQ.

- The brutal raid recovery time after a wipe. *Cough Plane of Hate Cough* And don't forget the "Oh shit, I forgot I was bound here and have to run 30 minutes just to get back over here" run. "Hope I find a cleric to rez me so I gain my level back." Did I mention it sucked dying in EQ?

- Solo was just not feasible for all classes. Casters had it SO easy compared to melee. Binds, gates, rezzes, ports, invis, SoW, snares, roots, levi... etc etc

- How about those dungeons where you HAD to gate out? I played a monk and remember never venturing anywhere near a few dungeons (Charasis, Sol Ro, etc) unless I had a wizard/druid nearby. It took them way too long to add the 'phone home' button on the login screen.

- Remember what it was like actually having downtime in solo/group play? Sitting still watching that blue bar, and asking the group what their mana was at, because you couldn't see it? That shit would never fly today.

- Tradeskills were an absolute bitch to raise in some cases and provided very little benefit for the work involved. Same with most quests... but [epic quests] lived up to their name.

The kill/XP/level/gear system in any game isn't hard, it's the amount of crap the game puts you through on the way that gives it flavor.

It all comes down to the old Animal training philosophy of Carrot (reward for doing good things) and Stick (punishment for doing bad/wrong things). Using only 1 of the 2 is far FAR less effective than using both. And in the end, Humans are just another animal.

EQ had little in the way of Developer created Carrot (though the fact that it was a Brand New Shiny game was its own *huge* Carrot) but plenty of Stick. By end game some of the sticks were removed (hihi 96% rezes and easy corpse summons/drags; PoK for movement, etc) but the fact that you leveled through them left their impression. These days, the Brand New Shiny isn't there, and the paradigm fails.

WoW, Mr Lowest Common Denominator, has almost no Stick (and in many places replaced Stick with "smaller carrot" for failing/punishment) and tries to rely almost solely on Carrot, for a completely epic fail.

Now we add in the issue that animals (again, including humans) will acclimatize to anything, good OR bad. To the POW, a clean cup of water, a cheeseburger is heaven; to the average Joe that's a rather sad lunch; to the Mega-ultra-rich, unless that was Sake fed Kobe beef and 800 year aged imported Antarctic ice melt- its not worth eating.

In a environment of heavy Stick, even the slightest Carrot is orgasmic. In a environment of heavy Carrot, the slightest Stick is a holocaust. And the longer one's in a Heavy Carrot/Stick environment, the more pressure in that direction (and the less in the other) has to be applied to create a change in behavior.

There are people out there who never played anything but wow, and feel wow's Carrot nature is *too hard* (too much Stick). Imagine the next game, if these people have their say. And the game after that. How long till that little flash game where you click a button to ding and gain a new purple item ceases to be a caricature and becomes the norm?

The best thing a Dev can do is give us access to Their world, give us meaningful punishments and rewards, and remind us that while we are *a* hero that slayed the dragon, we are not THE hero. We are not unique and special snowflakes.

[Vardisk]

Originally Posted by kuldiin

Does anyone actually stick with an MMO like they used to back with EQ?

I played UO till EQ came out. Played EQ till WoW came out. Haven't touched any other MMO ever, cept a couple free trials.
Is that what you mean?