WAR NDA officially lifted. Post pics and info!

[Sythrak]

Originally Posted by CnCGOD

Wow's biggest flaw was the low cost of death, that I am 100% agreed on. Warhammer seems to have short term penalties but I think a loss of renown would be more fitting than hp reduction.

Are you high? Just stop.

[CnCGOD]

Originally Posted by Sythrak

Are you high? Just stop.

PvP should reward wins and not dieing more than anything because thats the nature of PvP.... you either won or you lost and you should fear a loss. Not just pure grind time.

Anyway look at the damn word... RENOWN. I doubt someone who lost every fight they were in but were in so many they still got max renown is really going to be worthy of you know... RENOWN?

[Necrolyte]

Originally Posted by Malkav

With this system I would pity WH and WE. :/

Well, there are clear imbalances with this system but what I proposed was the simplest form. An easy solution is just to weight the -Realm Points penalty so that it was weighted less for tanks/melee DPS dying than for ranged DPS dying.

[CnCGOD]

Originally Posted by Necrolyte

Well, there are clear imbalances with this system but what I proposed was the simplest form. An easy solution is just to weight the -Realm Points penalty so that it was weighted less for tanks/melee DPS dying than for ranged DPS dying.

Or spread it across the group just as kills are spread across the group.

[Draegan]

Who cares about how many people have RR80. What will be fun is watch leaders on the Realm War. It's basically a leaderboard for everything RvR. It should be fun, though everything is under NDA I think?

[CnCGOD]

Originally Posted by Draegan

Who cares about how many people have RR80. What will be fun is watch leaders on the Realm War. It's basically a leaderboard for everything RvR. It should be fun, though everything is under NDA I think?

Well yes having a system to reward the skilled players mitigates the lack of skill recognition in the renown system. And if you are truly good, you don't really need rewards in gear anyway. I just hope that healing has some metric other than Killing Blow vs Death ratio or raw healing. Because my rune priest did the dps of a lvl 1 bright wizard at lvl 15 and was always the subject of massive focus fire thus leading to higher death counts.

[Necrolyte]

Originally Posted by Draegan

Who cares about how many people have RR80. What will be fun is watch leaders on the Realm War. It's basically a leaderboard for everything RvR. It should be fun, though everything is under NDA I think?

I still think it's important to have some metric that represents skill level in the game. Think about it this way: If you went into a siege raid, and a RR60 player begins relaying some commands to the random warband... would you listen? Maybe. But is he skilled? Maybe he died 10,000 times, but got enough RR in the end to be RR60 anyways.

If RR represented true skill, then in that random siege raid, if you saw a RR60 talking, everyone would naturally listen. Why? Because they know he knows his stuff, he's successful, and he leads people to wins. Natural leaders are born from such a system, and it allows players who are skilled to have a stronger voice.

In the current system, just think of all the times you or someone with low RR think there's a better plan or strategy, but some idiot RR60 is saying "Let's zerg them, now!!!!!" Who are people going to listen to?

[Spawn]

Originally Posted by Necrolyte

I still think it's important to have some metric that represents skill level in the game. Think about it this way: If you went into a siege raid, and a RR60 player begins relaying some commands to the random warband... would you listen? Maybe. But is he skilled? Maybe he died 10,000 times, but got enough RR in the end to be RR60 anyways.

If RR represented true skill, then in that random siege raid, if you saw a RR60 talking, everyone would naturally listen. Why? Because they know he knows his stuff, he's successful, and he leads people to wins. Natural leaders are born from such a system, and it allows players who are skilled to have a stronger voice.

In the current system, just think of all the times you think there's a better plan or strategy, but some idiot RR60 is saying "Let's zerg them, now!!!!!" Who are people going to listen to?

Its obvious you probably didn't play DAoC where this system originated from. You don't listen to the high RR players because of their level, you listen to the people who have risen and succeeded. These people naturally take these positions over time, and the community learns quickly who they are. I know back in the DAoC days, there were certain realm mates I would follow to war within any day of the week, and others who were given the opportunity and failed miserably.

[Necrolyte]

Originally Posted by Spawn

Its obvious you probably didn't play DAoC where this system originated from. You don't listen to the high RR players because of their level, you listen to the people who have risen and succeeded. These people naturally take these positions over time, and the community learns quickly who they are. I know back in the DAoC days, there were certain realm mates I would follow to war within any day of the week, and others who were given the opportunity and failed miserably.

No, I understand that's what happened in DAOC, and even in PvE games random raid leaders began sprouting up as reputable pickup raid leaders.

But that's when communities are smaller, and you can recognize all these names and people. As a MMO that's trying to break into some major demographics and get some major sub numbers, you need to have more mainstream methods of identifying which players are skilled and which are not.

Remember, DAOC had relatively small sub numbers, and divided into 3 realms. WAR wants massive numbers (by comparison) split into 2 realms, so there are a lot more players on your side, and a lot more players vying for leadership and/or establishing themselves. Will people eventually still recognize the great leaders? Sure. But why are you against a system that embraces the leaders and shows them off to people to begin with?

[Pyros]

I definitely wouldn't listen some random guy just because he's rr60, 80, or over 9000. If his "orders" make sense, I might go with what he's saying, else I'll just do my own shit, especially if it's zerg vs zerg. Ultimately, I'll probably always be running with at least one guildmate, and probably a full group, so we'll do our own stuff, with our own strat, because Mr RR60 can't actually tell if the people he's telling to do stuff can actually do it. Having strats and stuff is nice, but you still need non retards to do it. See wow's raiding, addons telling you when shit is coming, videos everywhere, yet people failing non stop.

I don't think you need a number telling you "how good" is a player. Especially when it could just be, how good is his guild, how big is the zerg he's usually part of, how good is his class, how cowardly he is etc. After playing for a while on the server, you just know who's good, and who's just all talk. Doesn't take any shiny armor or precise numeric values.

[Necrolyte]

Originally Posted by Pyros

I definitely wouldn't listen some random guy just because he's rr60, 80, or over 9000. If his "orders" make sense, I might go with what he's saying, else I'll just do my own shit, especially if it's zerg vs zerg. Ultimately, I'll probably always be running with at least one guildmate, and probably a full group, so we'll do our own stuff, with our own strat, because Mr RR60 can't actually tell if the people he's telling to do stuff can actually do it. Having strats and stuff is nice, but you still need non retards to do it. See wow's raiding, addons telling you when shit is coming, videos everywhere, yet people failing non stop.

I don't think you need a number telling you "how good" is a player. Especially when it could just be, how good is his guild, how big is the zerg he's usually part of, how good is his class, how cowardly he is etc. After playing for a while on the server, you just know who's good, and who's just all talk. Doesn't take any shiny armor or precise numeric values.

But that's my point: Eventually, people will know who is good and who isn't. But even so, why would you be opposed to some metric that represents a players' skill? It's extra information you can use to evaluate other players. That's a bad thing?

[Pyros]

Originally Posted by Necrolyte

But that's my point: Eventually, people will know who is good and who isn't. But even so, why would you be opposed to some metric that represents a players' skill? It's extra information you can use to evaluate other players. That's a bad thing?

Because the metric would penalize people twice for dieing(temp stats loss and perma RR loss), leading to stupid strategies involving avoiding death and racking kills. TM wars and so on. If you weight the RR loss, it still won't matter, it's easier to survive as an archmage/shaman than as a witch elf/hunter, and you gain the same RP by staying behind the lines doing nothing but throwing a few daggers.

Your keep is under attack! Go there, notice there's way too many people, don't bother even trying to defend, you'll lose RR. Go back to scenario farming or picking up herbs. This kind of mentality would ruin gaming, this is the effect of progression penalties. The same reason you don't see xp loss on death anymore. It's annoying for most people. It adds a consequence, but an annoying one. I'd rather have item loss like old school UO than go to a leveling system with xp loss again, and ultimately RR loss is a form of xp loss since RR is the main progression of your character.

[Necrolyte]

Originally Posted by Pyros

Because the metric would penalize people twice for dieing(temp stats loss and perma RR loss), leading to stupid strategies involving avoiding death and racking kills. TM wars and so on. If you weight the RR loss, it still won't matter, it's easier to survive as an archmage/shaman than as a witch elf/hunter, and you gain the same RP by staying behind the lines doing nothing but throwing a few daggers.

Your keep is under attack! Go there, notice there's way too many people, don't bother even trying to defend, you'll lose RR. Go back to scenario farming or picking up herbs. This kind of mentality would ruin gaming, this is the effect of progression penalties. The same reason you don't see xp loss on death anymore. It's annoying for most people. It adds a consequence, but an annoying one. I'd rather have item loss like old school UO than go to a leveling system with xp loss again, and ultimately RR loss is a form of xp loss since RR is the main progression of your character.

There are several ways to implement a 'rewarding' death penalty. It doesn't have to be -Realm Points, it was just the simplest example given. Furthermore, if a new penalty was implemented or tested, why assume the old penalty of stat loss would remain? It wouldn't necessarily be two penalties tacked on top of each other.

Other examples are spreading +Renown and -Renown across the entire Warband. Which is imbalanced in some ways as well, but the point is there are tons of possible solutions--do not get caught up in some samples being given in the threads.

I'll give you a different scenario:

Open RvR, a group of 30 tries to siege a keep. A group of 60 is defending. The group of 30 wins 5x in a row, but the group of 60 keeps trickling back since the spawn point is 1 minute away. After 8 battles or so, almost all of the 60 has died a few times with multiple -Wounds penalty. Finally, the group of 60 pushes the group of 30 back and defends the keep after 10 battles.

Something seems odd to you there doesn't it? If the group of 30 is that skilled to win 5 full battles in a row, shouldn't they have won the Keep? In the current system and current death penalty, it's almost impossible for the group of 30 to win, simply due to attrition.

[Pyros]

That's the point of temporary death penalties, I don't see how a permanent penalty would make the 30people win, but by making the 60people give up, which goes against common sense. You don't get people to give up, you destroy them. In the end, even if the group of 60 wins, it's balanced because they were defending(stronger position) and they had twice the people. Skill is important, but you can't discard those facts just because the 30 were more skilled. Also in this operation, the 30people will have gained a lot of RPs from all the kills, while the 60 will have gained not much at all. Instead of giving them a penalty, the fact they're not winning is a penalty in itself, they've been fighting and getting their ass owned and haven't got anything to show for it.

I honestly don't feel it's an issue. The 30people can also just reform 30mins later and take the keep, because the newbs who just got owned non stop will be more prone to leave.

You already gain more RP if your group is successful, I just don't see the point of penalizing the group who isn't even more. Also, you don't need specific bonus to reward better players, they already reward themselves by being better. They'll already be higher RR, have better gear, farm better stuff. Why would you want to make it so other players who are not as good end up being even worse by penalizing them on the gear/progression level.

Also, on a different note, is Elder server up yet? Are people playing the new build? How about some NDA breakage, no one cares 4days from open beta. New magus? New witchelf? New squig herder? Same questions for the mirrors if you've played those instead.

[Necrolyte]

Originally Posted by Pyros

That's the point of temporary death penalties, I don't see how a permanent penalty would make the 30people win, but by making the 60people give up, which goes against common sense. You don't get people to give up, you destroy them. In the end, even if the group of 60 wins, it's balanced because they were defending(stronger position) and they had twice the people. Skill is important, but you can't discard those facts just because the 30 were more skilled. Also in this operation, the 30people will have gained a lot of RPs from all the kills, while the 60 will have gained not much at all. Instead of giving them a penalty, the fact they're not winning is a penalty in itself, they've been fighting and getting their ass owned and haven't got anything to show for it.

Sorry, getting caught in two separate issues. The permanent penalty suggestions are because I can't stand seeing max level people that are poorly skilled. I come from a camp where if I see a RR80 player, I want to know "That must be one helluva PvPer."

The second issue is the death penalty and how it impacts the metagame of sieges and open RvR.

I honestly don't feel it's an issue. The 30people can also just reform 30mins later and take the keep, because the newbs who just got owned non stop will be more prone to leave.

This is an assumption, and I could just as likely say the group of 30 people will be more prone to stop and leave because they won multiple battles in a row against the group of 60 but still couldn't win the overall objective--that's morale defeating.

The group of 60 however, regardless of losses, "won" the day.

You already gain more RP if your group is successful, I just don't see the point of penalizing the group who isn't even more. Also, you don't need specific bonus to reward better players, they already reward themselves by being better. They'll already be higher RR, have better gear, farm better stuff. Why would you want to make it so other players who are not as good end up being even worse by penalizing them on the gear/progression level.

Also, on a different note, is Elder server up yet? Are people playing the new build? How about some NDA breakage, no one cares 4days from open beta. New magus? New witchelf? New squig herder? Same questions for the mirrors if you've played those instead.

I just come from a background where I think skill should be rewarded, and that there should be a gap between the skilled and the non-skilled.

Right now, I don't see a mechanism in place that allows the skilled, small groups to overcome the zergs. Temporary death penalties in their current form are not enough for the smaller group to beat the zerg. Sure, numbers mean a lot in RvR but remember, in this example, the group of 30 beats the group of 60 MULTIPLE times, so they are clearly more skilled and organized--or at least skilled enough to overcome pure numbers in an open fight. In this case, I think if the group of 30 beats the group of 60 that many times, they 100% deserve the Keep.