WAR NDA officially lifted. Post pics and info! - Page 104

Lost Ranger · 08-28-2008, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by machineman

He said WAR is far more balanced. That's a pretty bold and blanket statement, especially at this stage. What's the basis of that? Of course I assume there are facts... right?

Please tell me you are not claiming that WoW is even remotely close to balanced. If you are then seriously get the fuck out of this thread.

Mist · 08-28-2008, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiskyChris

What conditions? The fundamentals of PvP are not RPS, for starters.

Actually, they are, the developers even started that it supposed to be a nearly direct RPS setup. Which is fine, honestly, if they actually stick to it.

Pyros · 08-28-2008, 05:37 PM

What you could say makes war PvP more balanced(and it doesn't actually), is the fact the time to kill a player is longer in war than in wow, giving you more time to actually counter stuff, and the fact it's less reliant on powerful total CCs(such as sheep/fear) while still providing tactical CCs(stuns knockbacks and snares).

It's not more or less balanced though, there's no way you can quantify how balanced is a game, and war is definitely not balanced. If you mean order vs destruction balance, yeah, maybe. But then wow's pvp is pretty much perfectly balanced, since both sides use the same classes. On a class by class design, war is definitely not fully balanced, and you'd still have to consider issues like, not having a lot of max level decent RR level comparison to begin with. Ultimately no one gives a fuck if the game is balanced at 20, if it sucks at max level.

The concept of rock paper scissor is also vastly applied to war, simply because as soon as you enter a 1vs1 comparison mechanic, it's always RPS because there's always classes better at 1vs1 against other classes. See any class that can kite vs melees. War has plenty of rock paper scissor in a 1vs1 model. In a group vs group, wow is much less RPS, and while there's still optimal setups, that's mostly due to class synergy, which is a GOOD thing in a mmo.

Overall, the statement is retarded, war isn't more balanced than wow, nor wow is more balanced than war. War might end up being more fun though, depending on what you like, what type of player you are, and so on. But balance, not really.

Morannon · 08-28-2008, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lost Ranger

Sure, player skill is always a factor. Insane gear advantages though quickly start to remove it from pvp though. Lets not even say S4, simple S2 welfare epics is enough. A person in full S2 will stomp the shit out of someone who just dinged 70 and at best has dungeon blues. Even if the rookie 70 is a better player he would still lose. In some cases he could prob win if the S2 guy is THAT terrible but even a keyboard turner should win.

My point was lets not all gasp in shock and horror because people late to the WAR party are not going to be equals to those who are getting in at head start. It is how all MMOs work, so lets not bury our heads in the sand and pretend other wise. Don't take what I said to the extreme either. A rank 40 RR40+ player is not going to be a god amongst men compared to fresh 40s. It just isnt 100% equal and fair. The RR40+ player should and prob will win is all.

I don't know how it plays out at 40, but the 10/6 gear advantage I saw in the preview weekend was pretty horrific, as bad or worse than the twinking I've seen with WoW gear. I was glad to learn that this may have been a bug, or at least is an issue being looked at seriously. How does this play out in the long run? I'd assume it smooths out, but I'm a little nervous that we might see a situation like WoW now, where those deep beyond RR40, say RR60-80 might have gear that puts them at a significant advantage beyond those in the RR40-60 range.

Lost Ranger · 08-28-2008, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brikker

Well, if WAR has more than 3 or 4 classes that are worth playing for PVP, then it's more balanced that WoW.

Ding ding ding! I am sure WoW pvp seems great if you are a Rogue or Druid. There are some WAR classes that need a boost but none that I could see that need a serious nerf. I never thought to myself "damn that class is retarded" like I did the WoW rogue.

Draegan · 08-28-2008, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyros

Overall, the statement is retarded, war isn't more balanced than wow, nor wow is more balanced than war. War might end up being more fun though, depending on what you like, what type of player you are, and so on. But balance, not really.

Personally I don't think you can tell right now. I would lean towards WAR however only because there are less class derivations. WOW classes have a lot of variable builds where WAR, not so much.

Draegan · 08-28-2008, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draegan

If you read the Tome you get introduced to a lot of those things.

Whoever -interneted me with "the tome?", I was referring to the Tome of Knowledge which is an in game Lore/Quest/Help manual or journal.

Morsakin · 08-28-2008, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necrolyte

As far as we know, it's not a moving cap, but it's extremely difficult to cap.

Some Elders on the forums are quoting that the concept is getting RR70 to RR71 is the same as RR1-RR50 so most players might soft cap around the RR50 mark, and the hardcore will dig deeper towards RR80.

Thank god.

Lost Ranger · 08-28-2008, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morannon

I don't know how it plays out at 40, but the 10/6 gear advantage I saw in the preview weekend was pretty horrific, as bad or worse than the twinking I've seen with WoW gear. I was glad to learn that this may have been a bug, or at least is an issue being looked at seriously. How does this play out in the long run? I'd assume it smooths out, but I'm a little nervous that we might see a situation like WoW now, where those deep beyond RR40, say RR60-80 might have gear that puts them at a significant advantage beyond those in the RR40-60 range.

That was only horrific because you had people in a full RvR set vs people who had little and in some cases no gear on at all. If you got to the 15-20 range you would of seen the climb in gear. The sets obviously get better but its not a "woah holy shit!" type deal. The set you get at rank 15 I believe was better then the 10/6 gear but not amazingly so. RR60-80 folks will have a gear advantage over RR40 folks but it won't be game breaking.

Little more armor, stats, weps with a bit higher dps. Enough to notice but not enough to throw your hands up and quit. Keep in mind that you don't get gear every couple RR levels. Could only be a handful of sets max between rr40 and rr60. So 4+ dps on weapons maybe? Its pretty subtle.

Lost Ranger · 08-28-2008, 05:55 PM

Lets be realistic for a second as well. We talk about all these RR80s dominating the field but keep in mind that alot of people will not even reach that rank. DAoC was not full of max realm ranked players and that was years after release. People roll alts, and play multiple characters in RvR. Making getting to rr80 pretty impossible.

People like to change it up. As an example I plan to have a Bright Wizard and a Witch Hunter at least. I enjoy both in RvR so plan to play both depending on what the situation calls for. I can tell you right now I won't be reaching RR80. I enjoy leaving my options open and I think most people are in the same boat. We may see some RR80s in a year or so but I doubt you notice them because in a 100v100 fight... who gives a shit

Cerin · 08-28-2008, 06:00 PM

Ranger's probably right here. It's 5 million RP just to go from 79 to 80. Don't expect to see RR80 folks for a long damn time.

Hashi · 08-28-2008, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyros

What you could say makes war PvP more balanced(and it doesn't actually), is the fact the time to kill a player is longer in war than in wow, giving you more time to actually counter stuff, and the fact it's less reliant on powerful total CCs(such as sheep/fear) while still providing tactical CCs(stuns knockbacks and snares).

Stuns are by far a more irritating and "total" CC than is sheep. I was under the impression that WAR had no stuns, I'm sad to learn otherwise.

Also, the whole + / - internets thing is gaying up this board. What genius thought this was a valuable function? (Go ahead and give me -internets for it)

Pyros · 08-28-2008, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hashi

Stuns are by far are more irritating and "total" CC than is sheep. I was under the impression that WAR had no stuns, I'm sad to learn otherwise.

Also, the whole + / - internets thing is gaying up this board. What genius thought this was a valuable function? (Go ahead and give me -internets for it)

Thinking about it, I wrote that but I'm unsure war has any stun, trying to remember. Witch elves had a gouge type ability(stuns you until you take a hit, for a short duration) but not sure about stuns. There's knockdowns however, which act as stuns, so there exists some CC. They're pretty short duration and not chainable, so it's not much of a problem. In WoW, there's multiple type of stuns which have different diminishing returns, and even if you hit the same DRs, it still takes 3 application until you're immune. In war there's only one type, and you're immune after you've got hit once.

Myself, I never had an issue with wow CC, but some people are still crying to this day about the CC chains from 4years ago, so thought it was worth mentionning.

Bixxby · 08-28-2008, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyros

Myself, I never had an issue with wow CC, but some people are still crying to this day about the CC chains from 4years ago, so thought it was worth mentionning.

Have you played the two's bracket in the last year and a half?

Edit: Does anyone know if renown per kill increases as you level and at what rate?

melicant · 08-28-2008, 06:49 PM

Mythic has stated many times that it is Rock, Paper, Scissors when it comes to their classes, but the game is not balanced around 1v1 at all. They have touted it as a realm vs realm game all along, and as a result you will probably never see a 2v2, 3v3, or 5v5 scenario.

For those that are concerned about competing with higher RR people down the road, if it's like DAOC in a group setting it makes a difference, but not by a huge margin. Some of the 8-Man groups in DAOC would often re-form on a different realm with rr1-2 players and compete against higher realm rank groups without a problem just due to superior coordination or group setups. As others have said, rank 1-5 in DAOC went really fast, and WAR seems to have a similar advancement curve. If I recall, 5-6 took as long as 1-5.

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08-28-2008, 05:37 PM	#1548 (permalink)
Pyros Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,597 +24 Internets	What you could say makes war PvP more balanced(and it doesn't actually), is the fact the time to kill a player is longer in war than in wow, giving you more time to actually counter stuff, and the fact it's less reliant on powerful total CCs(such as sheep/fear) while still providing tactical CCs(stuns knockbacks and snares). It's not more or less balanced though, there's no way you can quantify how balanced is a game, and war is definitely not balanced. If you mean order vs destruction balance, yeah, maybe. But then wow's pvp is pretty much perfectly balanced, since both sides use the same classes. On a class by class design, war is definitely not fully balanced, and you'd still have to consider issues like, not having a lot of max level decent RR level comparison to begin with. Ultimately no one gives a fuck if the game is balanced at 20, if it sucks at max level. The concept of rock paper scissor is also vastly applied to war, simply because as soon as you enter a 1vs1 comparison mechanic, it's always RPS because there's always classes better at 1vs1 against other classes. See any class that can kite vs melees. War has plenty of rock paper scissor in a 1vs1 model. In a group vs group, wow is much less RPS, and while there's still optimal setups, that's mostly due to class synergy, which is a GOOD thing in a mmo. Overall, the statement is retarded, war isn't more balanced than wow, nor wow is more balanced than war. War might end up being more fun though, depending on what you like, what type of player you are, and so on. But balance, not really.

08-28-2008, 05:55 PM	#1555 (permalink)
Lost Ranger Still Lost Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,316 -15 Internets	Lets be realistic for a second as well. We talk about all these RR80s dominating the field but keep in mind that alot of people will not even reach that rank. DAoC was not full of max realm ranked players and that was years after release. People roll alts, and play multiple characters in RvR. Making getting to rr80 pretty impossible. People like to change it up. As an example I plan to have a Bright Wizard and a Witch Hunter at least. I enjoy both in RvR so plan to play both depending on what the situation calls for. I can tell you right now I won't be reaching RR80. I enjoy leaving my options open and I think most people are in the same boat. We may see some RR80s in a year or so but I doubt you notice them because in a 100v100 fight... who gives a shit

08-28-2008, 06:00 PM	#1556 (permalink)
Cerin Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 87 +9 Internets	Ranger's probably right here. It's 5 million RP just to go from 79 to 80. Don't expect to see RR80 folks for a long damn time.

08-28-2008, 06:49 PM	#1560 (permalink)
melicant Registered User Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 90 +2 Internets	Mythic has stated many times that it is Rock, Paper, Scissors when it comes to their classes, but the game is not balanced around 1v1 at all. They have touted it as a realm vs realm game all along, and as a result you will probably never see a 2v2, 3v3, or 5v5 scenario. For those that are concerned about competing with higher RR people down the road, if it's like DAOC in a group setting it makes a difference, but not by a huge margin. Some of the 8-Man groups in DAOC would often re-form on a different realm with rr1-2 players and compete against higher realm rank groups without a problem just due to superior coordination or group setups. As others have said, rank 1-5 in DAOC went really fast, and WAR seems to have a similar advancement curve. If I recall, 5-6 took as long as 1-5.