[WoW] WotLK - Beta Patch Notes

[Lithose]

Originally Posted by Zerai

And then there was this gem about hunters


I don't even need to make a rogue complaint. Just go by that alone. 'we're not giving you the defense of a rogue, because having that plus good offense is unbalancing'. Ok. Glad we cleared that up.

Read what she is saying (Though I agree it should be worded more eloquently.)..

Their goal for hunters is to have their defense based on not being around melee, at all. They want you to have enough tools to stay out of range of melee for "some" of the time. They have to factor that in for defenses. If they design abilities and expect you to be kiting roughly XX amount of time, then that number has to come off the amount of damage you can avoid/mitigate when the melee is close to you.

Rogues do *not* have this option. They must melee to do deal damage, so they don't have the "defense" of range, so they can't count being at range as a viable form of avoidance/mitigation.

Many casters forget about this when arguing about "defense"..Range is an extremely effective defense, I can't count the number of matches I have lost because of a good death coil/CoE/Pillar with dots still active on me (Its a huge mana drain, while I'm not applying any pressure.) or because some hunter got away from me and ran on top of the bridge in blades or because I got improved wing clip and he popped rapid fire, after silencing/vipering my healer.

Dodge only works on melee classes, so if you have adequate range tools, it has to be factored into your "overall defense". If you have ever played against a hunter/druid in 2s you would understand, a high end hunter can keep you off him more than 50% of the time, that means I'm already doing 1/2 damage (This is with the druid getting roots grounded/cyclones shocked.)..When I get in melee range is 30-45% of my attacks are missed, then it becomes a bit absurd, right?

In short, your ability to stay ranged got buffed (even more.) so your ability to take melee hits got nerfed, this isn't hard..Hunter defenses were *never* the problem with the class..Its always been Min range/LoS+Mana, in that order, I'm really not suprised they don't want to increase defense of hunters at all..In fact, when you think about this, its a fairly elegant solution to keeping hunter defense the same, while increasing damage. By having your defense be a range increase, rather than avoidance, it allows you to use your bow more..Right now, melee negating hunter damage is a huge part of them sucking, this is a good change.

[Makata]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

Let's put it this way, any good random system would be completely indistinguishable from letting guilds choose the loot they get

No. No it isn't. Just because you kill the boss doesn't mean you're automatically entitled to the best 3 things he drops. Get over yourself, you aren't fucking important or special just because you killed him. I could go on but it's been said 100 times before and you refuse to listen.

Originally Posted by Zerai

This is where DKP comes in. You go "I want an item" And you spend dkp and buy it. Tank is now at the bottom. Maybe a healer is up next.

Except that isn't how it works. No guild is going to let some third string healer or dps get a trivial upgrade just because they're higher on the list than the tank who needs the upgrades to make the instance easier. Every single guild will completely outfit at least 1 tank, maybe more, then their most senior healers, etc. Warlock_03 won't get shit until the place is practically being farmed.

[Chrisb3]

So much whine and bad complicated ideas in the last few pages. My god people complain about too many warglavies!? Make such you got one warrior/rogue per raid without them, or sell them for 50k or more gold.

Have bad luck? Expand the token/badge system.
Want more customisation and indivuality? Expand the gemming/enchant system.
That is it. All you need.

Tie little lore quests to it also...
[Illidan's Lockbox]: Deliver to Tyrande Whisperwind/Grand Magister Rommath. Offers a choice of Skull of Guldan or Memento of Tyrande. Have some fun quest text showing these NPC's reactions to what is inside.
[Tainted Blindfold]: Little crafting quest that asks for some basic mats. Offers a choice of the helms Illidan drops.
[Commendation of Keal'thas]: Deliver to Adal. Gives a choice of one of the four MGT trinkets. Have some quest text explaining how Delrissa rezzed Kealthas.
These are already in the game on every other endboss. Just needs expanding.

I'd like a more complex crafting based solution as I posted earlier, but it's just one small step to solve all these problems without crazy complex mechanics.

[Cuppycake]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

Were you paying attention in class or were you staring down Cuppycakes panties at that huge bulge in her pants where Kosters dick is?

Man, I'm glad I decided to check in on this thread...

[Trifle]

Originally Posted by Lithose

If you have ever played against a hunter/druid in 2s you would understand, a high end hunter can have his druid partner keep you off him more than 50% of the time, that means I'm already doing 1/2 damage (This is with the druid getting roots grounded/cyclones shocked.)..When I get in melee range is 30-45% of my attacks are missed, then it becomes a bit absurd, right?

Fixed. Besides, if the druid is getting ALL of his roots/cyclones grounded or shocked, its not a high end team.

[Makata]

Originally Posted by Trifle

Fixed. Besides, if the druid is getting ALL of his roots/cyclones grounded or shocked, its not a high end team.

Druids are ridiculous but don't act like hunter vs dps/heal isn't as much or more so. If there is no priest or paladin on the opposing team (read: most 2's) the hunter can cc 1 person for 14 out of every 30 seconds at a bare minimum. It just gets easier against a melee since the hunter won't have to run far. Conc shot can snare you snared from range 1/3rd of the time and occasionally stun you. Since you were responding to someone speaking from the rogue perspective, a hunter can quite easily partially or completely CC a rogue for 22 continuous seconds out of every 30. Against a good hunter (especially if he's paired with a good druid) I simply cannot do anything. Being unable to shs while rooted will just cement this imbalance. If it's nagrand we have a small fighting chance since I can force the hunter to be no more than ~10 yards away from me at a time but in lordaeron I am positively fucked.

TL;DR -- If a melee actually manages to get in melee range of a hunter, the hunter deserves to take some fucking damage. This isn't from a "you must suck to let X get in melee range" point of view, as that's obviously not the case, it will happen, but instead from a "it happens so little of the time the other guy deserves a break when it does happen."

I cannot tell you how absolutely maddening it is to spend the better part of a minute building up 5 points on a hunter between scatter, trap, cyclone, roots, conc, bash (ALL on different DRs of course) and to finally get in range only to have kidney dodged. That is simply unacceptable.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Originally Posted by Koushirou

How about this (for raids anyway):

I know I've been pretty zealous about this and I've suffered the wrath of the interents for it, but the whole point isn't to come up with some amalgamation of both a terrible and non-terrible system. The whole point is to go from terrible (pure random) to completely not terrible (completely not random).

The biggest problem is that by it's very nature, random doesn't mean "you will eventually get it." It means that "there is a significant chance that you will never get it."

The main contention point is that some people believe that static loot is boring and that you don't appreciate an item you worked hard for as much as an item that was gifted to you by lady RNG and her cruel ways. Honestly with a loot select system you can have it both ways. Just have your guild /rand 100 to see who gets to pick their loot. Rolling agaisnt 24 other people it may be 6 months inbetween loots for you! Fun!

[BurnemWizfyre]

Makata, This user is on your ignore list. Anyone else find it funny that here on the WoTLK thread his name pops up over and over about pvp, Yet this fucking retard isnt present in over 15 pages on the pvp thread. Forum troll, why isnt he banned yet.

[Chrisb3]

Makata
This message is hidden because Makata is on your ignore list.

Ignore has changed this thread from a pile of shit into something worth reading. Seems like alot of people have done the same as the quote and counter quoting has gone

Victory I think!

[DJk_zero]

Yep ^

[Trifle]

Originally Posted by Makata

Druids are ridiculous but don't act like hunter vs dps/heal isn't as much or more so. If there is no priest or paladin or shaman or warlock on the opposing team (read: some 2's) the hunter can cc 1 person for 14 out of every 30 seconds at a bare minimum.

Fixed. Druid healer is the only healer that can't prevent freeze traps, and they can root the hunter to help out their melee alot, and don't have to worry about viper sting.

Hunter + druid is strong, but its not like you don't have options. Instant aimed shot is probably a bit over the top tho. PS this should probably go in pvp thread.

[Zehn - Vhex]

How about we change it up a bit. Since TBC is drawing to a close, why don't we list the best/worst things we felt about TBC.

Personally, I think the best change was in raiding. It started out very rocky with extremely high learning curves/mats requirements, but really it has become quite, quite painless compared to the Consumable-fest/get world buffs bullshit that was pre-tbc rading. And yet sunwell has managed to still be some of the most challenging content to date. Hyjal was a bit of a let down (was looking forward to buying goblin land mines and building towers and hiring NCP's and all sorts of neat shit and it became "CLEAR TRASH FOR 50 MINUTES, PUSH BUTTON GET BACON).

10 man raids are very relaxing and very fun as well and a good contrast to the intense 25 man raids. I think the 10/25 man thing worked out quite well in the end too. There was a lot of doom and gloom about having to say goodbye to 15 of your friends after 40 man raiding but the problem seemed to take care of itself. I really don't miss any of the people who are no longer with us. <3 <3

I would say worst though is dungeon design. If you can't jump off a ledge, why have a ledge there in the first place? It's kind of hard to imagine that the same people who brought us CoT:Durnholde which is pretty much the -best- instance in the game to date could also churn out Auchenai Crypts which is four rooms connected by four hallways. Uninspired boring modular horseshit. Yes, everybody loved SM cathedral, but everybody also loves Shadowfang Keep which is a winding, crawling dungeon.

Oh and Arena. Fuck Arena.

[Makata]

Originally Posted by BurnemWizfyre

Makata, This user is on your ignore list. Anyone else find it funny that here on the WoTLK thread his name pops up over and over about pvp, Yet this fucking retard isnt present in over 15 pages on the pvp thread. Forum troll, why isnt he banned yet.

As I've said before, the thread is about as logical as building a playground specifically for pedophiles so they'll stay out of the public park. Hardly anyone posts in it and I'm sure 3/4ths of them have me on ignore anyway, so what possibly motivation do I have for posting there?

Originally Posted by Trifle

Fixed. Druid healer is the only healer that can't prevent freeze traps, and they can root the hunter to help out their melee alot, and don't have to worry about viper sting.

If you're trying to suggest grounding for the trap, the hunter's druid can just spam FF on the rogue to eat it up. And rooting the hunter doesn't do shit unless you literally catch them on scatter's global cooldown. Root them beforehand and the hunter's druid will just run to the hunter and root will mean nothing.

[Pancreas]

Things I did like...
Tradeskills really grew quite a bit in TBC. The addition of equipment you actually wanted to wear (and not just for resists) was mind-blowing =p Couple this with benefits that only applied to the craftsman (ring enchants, jewel crafting trinkets ect.) and suddenly having a crafting skill seemed almost worthwhile. Albeit it is still another grind, it was at least different.

Badge Gear. Holy crap this was a godsend for casual types. There was a brutal gearing gap in pre-tbc for anyone not in a 40 man guild. And there were more than you might think.

Healing got a massive boost in the expansion. Ultimately Damage caught up but stepping out of the portal the first thing I started to notice was the stupidly high +healing values on everything. Along with the huge boosts in stats, and then finally the near comically overpowered buff to mana regen talents it really got hard to remember exactly what healing was like before the expansion. Kids these days just laugh when I talk about healing with the regular heal spell to conserve mana. Well now with the a regen recession on the horizon in WotLK maybe they wont be so fast to scoff at the older generation. Not sure how I stand on healing actually... all I know is it changed.. A LOT.

Killing pvp flagged people on floating islands.

Things I did not like...

Fighting whorelocks for elemental spawns. They finally changed the ability to banish another players tagged target... after I got all my primals. However having to grab a handful of friends and have a 'primal party' at everyone else's expense was almost worth it.

The direction of PvP. The most badass warriors in the world are too busy playing 'thunderdome' to be bothered to actually engage in meaningful combat. Something about this stinks and this time it's not the pigs.

The fact that we have completely battleground geared level 70's that don't know jack from shit about how to run a basic 5 man instance. Screw the 1-60 game... start everyone at level 55, in a small room... with a 5 pull guarding the door... if they can't get past that then we should consider ourselves lucky.

[DJk_zero]

Best: Consumables change in regards to raiding
Worst: Arena system