[WoW] WotLK - Beta Patch Notes

[Lithose]

Originally Posted by Neferata

The dual spec feature just saves everyone time and money. People already respec their hybrids throughout the raid night. The only difference is now you won't have to spend hundreds of gold a night, and you won't have to wait for the player to respec and get summoned back. This is a good thing for everyone. Don't confuse it with the real argument.

The real argument is that now that everyone can do decent dps, and everyone offers desirable raid buffs, it's unfair for hybrids to be able to respec to a new role. I disagree, although it's certainly an advantage. It's not like you need to stack the entire raid with hybrids just to gain the benefit of their versatility. There is an easily reachable point in which your raid group just becomes unnecessarily versatile.

I doubt very much that this will cause a significant imbalance in raid composition. Many encounters are balanced around unique, class-specific abilities, and it basically always pays to have a "balanced" roster because of this. The way content is designed has a huge impact on class balance. You can't just look at each class in a vacuum.

If there is one hybrid I think people might actually consider stacking under the current conditions, it's probably druid. This is mainly because of Rebirth, though. Not their ability to respec into a new role. Anyway, if Rebirth stacking actually becomes a problem, it'll just get nerfed. There's no point in getting bent out of shape about these changes right now. I play a "pure" class, and I see no point in getting pre-angry over something before I've had a chance to see it in action.

This is true, but its not all about raid composition, a lot of it is about guild composition, to. Take a look at sunwell, now imagine if your hybrids could have done hunter DPS, lets say buffs weren't an issue, to.

I wouldn't assume, in this case, that guilds won't be recruiting more hybrids. If moonkins can do as much DPS as a mage and can actually use the same gear to heal, then a guild will probably keep a few mages (like now) for DPS, but most likely you would be crazy not to put a moonkin in. The problem comes when you realize you might want a tree druid and a feral tank, to.

Now, if you want a consistent raid comp, you probably want 4-5 druids. Well, if a guild doesn't want to constantly sit people, then it has to recruit less of another class so the bench isn't so large (For some guilds, this doesn't matter, I know.)...Where do you think those slots come from? Because right now, for a lot of guilds, they are coming from mages and oddly enough "lesser used hybrids". Finding a guild as a moonkin, despite being really good in sunwell gear, isn't an easy task.

Each advantage is important in how players are able to "get" into the raid scene. A team game is as much about how your viewed as it is about how you play. The difference between now, and wrath is that the DPS difference between "Pure" and "Hybrid" overshadowed the value of versatility for everyone but shamans (And in some cases SPs)..But I think this is going to flip it dangerously close to the other direction...Its really going to come down to how they balance the % difference and how stringent encounters are on DPS checks..If losing 1-2% RDPS is no big deal..well.

[LadyVex]

Originally Posted by Agraza

I believe the solution to your problem is to consolidate CC into the pure dps classes with tactical tools like tricks of the trade/misdirection while hybrids are all more powerful support dps like ret pallies with 95% of your DPS not because 1:1 you have an advantage but because the retadin's buffs empower you more so than they do themselves. In smaller scale encounters such as 5 man and arena the DPS difference would be nearly non-existant.

This would also mean most of your capacities stack while theirs do not. You would want 1 ret pally or whichever combination of classes grant his contributions, while 2 mages would still grant 2 tactical spells and 2 sheep. 2 rogues would still grant 2 saps/blinds/gouges/ and 2 tricks of the trade. But you would design the system so those 2 mages aren't 2 frost, but rather 1 frost 1 fire or whatever. If you would base these support contributions on damage-type based charges ala hemorrhage/stormstrike/ISB it would be simpler to encourage diversity amongst control classes.

It would take a while to get the system to a state of intuitive elegance, but it would be superior to the current mish-mash of CC/buffs/DPS that has amalgamated all DPS specs into the same category. Time has shown that DPS is not a worthwhile role before for exactly this reason. Either all DPS have parity and have a place in raids or some are superior and vastly outnumber the rest.

Support classes would enable increased DPS of control classes, therefore; they contribute an equal share to the raid as a whole. But you're forced to employ synergy as one without the other is vastly less powerful.

Basically every DPS that isn't pure DPS has 1 or 2 elements of a bard. Bards had weaksauce damage, but in 48/54/72 man raids their contributions were hard to match. The logic should hold in WoW just as easily.

This is how it was in TBC technically, and what they tried to change. An spriest didn't bring this huge amount of dps to the table, but they had enough synergy with casters and esp. warlocks, and gave mana back with VT that their contributions were such you wanted at least 1 or 2. Same with enhancement and elemental shamans; not the best dps but they bring totems for an entire group and bloodlust. Feral druids stacked well with other melee due to the buffs and healing portion of their LoTP, etc etc.

I don't specifically like the change to flatline all the classes to be a competitive dps; I liked it more when the specific abilities brought a class to the table, but I am also aware that this was more a "bandaid" fix than anything, and allowed for some weird stacking issues and certain abilities to be "absolutely necessary".

I think most people are just angry that hybrids have so many options; given the opportunity I know relatively few pure dps classes who would want to tank or heal if they could. It's why they rolled that class. It's why my first class was a hunter; I wanted to do jack and shit and not be required and then those fuckers put tranq shot in and if I missed a raid it was like "Ok cool we don't need to kill Magmadar." That was always their solution; give a gimmick spell or ability so they can pass over real class balance. /shrug

[LadyVex]

Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

Guess what, the four pure classes don't have this luxury. Why the fuck should someone who picked a healing hybrid the same time I chose to pick a primary DPS class suddenly be able to not only compete with me on the damage meters but also bring enough of their class-specific abilities along to challenge my spot on the roster? There again, if I stuck to Blizz's bullshit class descriptions I'd be screaming about the fact my primary role as a debuffer just got flushed down the toilet.

Because you are always your role. When you don't need healing or tanking (Re: most soloing, grinding etc) you need to absolutely be able to do something else. Dps is ALWAYS needed. What happens to your feral tank if they can't do dps? Ok, well bring in little Timmy Suckalot rogue just because he can do dps whilst our tank can't. Etc.

Also, note to you: there aren't any "healing" hybrids, there are "hybrids". This is where your notion gets screwed up. You are still thinking along Makata's lines, that priests/druids/paladins are healers, that warriors are tanks and any deviation is a gross misdirect from their actual path and shouldn't be allowed.

Man you guys would have just raped the fuck out of DnD. Are you aware that a fighter with the appropriate feats and stat placement can go from being a d10 hp fighter to a d10 hp archer, completely? Yea, there you go.

[Lithose]

Originally Posted by BurnemWizfyre

Then reroll, each expansion is a reset. We all know you wont reroll though, cause as much as you want to use this straw man excuse for ez mode dps you dont want to do anything other then dps ever.

Notice something about these pictures? (Sorry, they are small, but you can see.)...I'm the MT idiot. Keep trying to make this argument attempting to trivialize peoples opinions as "desperate DPS". This change doesn't affect me at all, I don't DPS because there is a crazy shortage of tanks and because I have never enjoyed it.

Also, the second set is me being a tank on one of the server first UBRS runs (31/5/15 and still rocking the SM shield, go me.). And then on our first luci kill, mag kill, ony kill (lol go go drac defector)..Yeah, I play DPS lots, asshole.

Go on though, keep dodging.

[LadyVex]

I do understand your point Lithose; but at the sdame time, it just seems so well, silly to have people griping about there not being a tank spec or some shit for their dps class. Alot of their notions are based on a WoW where the "hybrid" classes were pigeonholed into one role entirely because of how bad the other specs sucked. And you're right; until AQ it wasn't even possible to get a separate set for most classes; all gear was primarily class restricted.

By the same token though, I have rather little sympathy for dps classes who really want to be "the best of". I mean I understand it, but as someone who has played healers forever, dps classes pretty much got the best of all worlds. It's only now that a class that has a healing bar (or a taunt button) is able to do more than simply that.

I don't however think that a hybrid being so versatile is really going to change people recruiting or grabbing pure classes. You still want them and might even get more of them, simply because if a tank fails to show up or a healer, etc, you just have someone respec and grab another dps class.

I dunno, maybe I'm living in the land of denial. /shrug

[Grizzlebeard]

Originally Posted by LadyVex

Also, note to you: there aren't any "healing" hybrids, there are "hybrids". This is where your notion gets screwed up. You are still thinking along Makata's lines, that priests/druids/paladins are healers, that warriors are tanks and any deviation is a gross misdirect from their actual path and shouldn't be allowed.

I was referring to Blizz's class descriptions, the thing most people went off when they created their first few characters. I don't think when someone picked a druid, listed as, "Hybrid, Primary Healer" they excted to be MT'ing on the same level as a warrior or DPS'ing at the level of a rogue. Seriously, knowing what you know now regarding the pure flexibility of say a druid, and the massive saving on relevelling alternate classes, including reputation, why would anyone want to play one of the four pure classes short of ignorance of what lies ahead or some masochistic urge to take a break from dropping the piano lid on their balls?

[Lithose]

Originally Posted by LadyVex

I do understand your point Lithose; but at the sdame time, it just seems so well, silly to have people griping about there not being a tank spec or some shit for their dps class. Alot of their notions are based on a WoW where the "hybrid" classes were pigeonholed into one role entirely because of how bad the other specs sucked. And you're right; until AQ it wasn't even possible to get a separate set for most classes; all gear was primarily class restricted.

By the same token though, I have rather little sympathy for dps classes who really want to be "the best of". I mean I understand it, but as someone who has played healers forever, dps classes pretty much got the best of all worlds. It's only now that a class that has a healing bar (or a taunt button) is able to do more than simply that.

I don't however think that a hybrid being so versatile is really going to change people recruiting or grabbing pure classes. You still want them and might even get more of them, simply because if a tank fails to show up or a healer, etc, you just have someone respec and grab another dps class.

I dunno, maybe I'm living in the land of denial. /shrug

Well, don't get me wrong, I think the situation wrath might create, even if it does have these draw backs, is a lot better than the current situation. Hybrids can't have much less DPS if you're not going to balance with buffs, if they did, and they did not have buffs to compensate, then no one would bring hybrids, at all.

The big thing I'm trying to communicate though is something Zhen actually said. Its really poor game design to allow one class to have a "job" system and another to be restricted. Some people will say "roll an alt!"..The difference with an alt is that an alt isn't there on the raid to grab rot loot, a hybrids second spec will always be there (kind of attached at the hip.).

How do you fix this? I'm not sure. As seb said, encounter design can make sure straight DPS comes, either through gimmicks or because DPS is so tuned that a few % means a lot. However, that is all based off the assumption that pure DPS will be noticeably better, but not a lot better, at DPS..Now, thats an extremely fine line to walk, we are talking a hundred to two hundred DPS here..Too much and you may as well trash hybrids, too little and you get the concerns voiced here.

Frankly, I'm concerned that Blizzard can't walk that line..The amount of time they allowed mages to languish and fail in TBC, or warlocks in vanilla is shocking, when you think about it..In a system where buffs mean nothing, disparities like locks in original and mages in TBC can not exist for months, if their balance updates continue to be this slow, the system will fail.

Don't forget, these are the guys that brought you the mage "Damage tax" on improved fireball/frost bolt, saying mage DPS was too high, when everyone raiding knew it was being eclipsed by many other classes due to scaling issues. Its so obvious that mages experienced an "alchemy" type fuck up...(If you played EQ, you remember the alchemy fiasco.). Screw ups like this will kill a class in wrath if its not fixed within a month or two. (Unlike 9+months for mages.)

[LadyVex]

Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

I was referring to Blizz's class descriptions, the thing most people went off when they created their first few characters. I don't think when someone picked a druid, listed as, "Hybrid, Primary Healer" they excted to be MT'ing on the same level as a warrior or DPS'ing at the level of a rogue. Seriously, knowing what you know now regarding the pure flexibility of say a druid, and the massive saving on relevelling alternate classes, including reputation, why would anyone want to play one of the four pure classes short of ignorance of what lies ahead or some masochistic urge to take a break from dropping the piano lid on their balls?

You're right, I didn't expect to be able to do those things as well as pure classes, but, I also don't think it will sway people from picking a rogue, or a mage etc. There are more facets of a class then just the ability to tank, to dps, to heal. I have one of every class, to at least 60, most are 70. Why? Because they are all different. It's nice to be able to do dps like a rogue in cat form, but most often I find that if I just want to melee dps, I really like the rogue. She has CoS, sprint, evasion, blade flurry, adrenaline rush etc. All these little tips and tricks that help her survive where my feral cat would just croak.

Same with a mage. I can do elemental damage on my shaman, but being able to sheep, to blink, to do massive amounts of AE damage, to dispel debuffs with iceblock...are all nice tweaks. If you are devoted to that path, you will most likely pick a pure class because they let you do your main job better. A feral tank can tank like a warrior, but doesn't have the numerous oh shit buttons. Nor do they have the BOP, LoH of a prot pally tank. Nor the DPS and magic abilities of a DK.

If you want to do everything, you'll roll a hybrid. If you want to do one thing specifically, you'll roll that specific class. Granted, tanking and healing classes don't have a pure class role, so i would agree that all classes need to become some kind of hybrid.

[spronk]

I skipped all the vaginas whining about changes - did Blizz say anything about patch 3.0 on tuesday? My understand is that it will include all the new WOTLK code, profession, and talent changes. So:

- you can learn Inscription
- you'll be able to get all the new specs
- only 1 potion per fight
- current raid bosses (T5+ or Kara/ZA/T4 too?) have a 30% hp nerf

My questions:

- Will blacksmiths get 2 extra sockets at 375 or will we have to wait for WOTLK and level up to 450? I am debating whether to level my main prot pally as a blacksmith or not, 2 extra sockets is quite nice.
- Will everyone be able to use glyphs in 3.0 or wait till wotlk? Inscriptors can level up to 375, but can anyone use glyphs they make? Has anyone seen a final 1-375 Inscriptor leveling guide? I've ratpacked ~200 stacks of herbs, and one of my alts is a herbalist, so hopefully should be enough.
- is the bear mount definitely gone from ZA in patch 3.0?
- is the XP reduction from 60-70 30% per level or so?

Anything else you can do in patch 3.0 to get ready for WOTLK? Reserve your DK names, level your main/alt to 350+ inscription, level up any other profs you want, bank up 75k honor, maybe grab some 55-60 quest items (EPL turnins, cloth turnins) to speed up DK. I also grabbed some 60-70 turnins like scryer/aldor/CE/etc for quick XP boosts.

[LadyVex]

Originally Posted by Lithose

Well, don't get me wrong, I think the situation wrath might create, even if it does have these draw backs, is a lot better than the current situation. Hybrids can't have much less DPS if you're not going to balance with buffs, if they did, and they did not have buffs to compensate, then no one would bring hybrids, at all.

The big thing I'm trying to communicate though is something Zhen actually said. Its really poor game design to allow one class to have a "job" system and another to be restricted. Some people will say "roll an alt!"..The difference with an alt is that an alt isn't there on the raid to grab rot loot, a hybrids second spec will always be there (kind of attached at the hip.).

How do you fix this? I'm not sure. As seb said, encounter design can make sure straight DPS comes, either through gimmicks or because DPS is so tuned that a few % means a lot. However, that is all based off the assumption that pure DPS will be noticeably better, but not a lot better, at DPS..Now, thats an extremely fine line to walk, we are talking a hundred to two hundred DPS here..Too much and you may as well trash hybrids, too little and you get the concerns voiced here.

Frankly, I'm concerned that Blizzard can't walk that line..The amount of time they allowed mages to languish and fail in TBC, or warlocks in vanilla is shocking, when you think about it..In a system though where buffs mean nothing, disparities like this can not exist for months, if their balance updates continue to be this slow, the system will fail.

Much better communicated and yes absolutely. If you look at it as a job system, Blizzard fails. They do all need to have this ability. It is essentially a big benefit not to have to rep grind again on another char, to level new tradeskills, to gather new equipment. I even made mention that originally my druid was feral but completed an entire healing set. (Including teired loot).

FF made the job system so cool, and I would absolutely prefer it. I just think in Blizzard's eyes what they are attempting to do is make you viable in all aspects, and for some classes it is impossible to do this unless they are another spec. I leveled disc on my priest during TBC and it was fine, because I was the quintessential healer like I had been in EQ; all I did was group with friends so I didn't need to do damage. I would never level disc solo though.

My fingers hurt from typing. ; ;

[LadyVex]

Originally Posted by spronk

I skipped all the vaginas whining about changes - did Blizz say anything about patch 3.0 on tuesday? My understand is that it will include all the new WOTLK code, profession, and talent changes. So:

- you can learn Inscription
- you'll be able to get all the new specs
- only 1 potion per fight

My questions:

- Will blacksmiths get 2 extra sockets at 375 or will we have to wait for WOTLK and level up to 450? I am debating whether to level my main prot pally as a blacksmith or not, 2 extra sockets is quite nice.
- Will everyone be able to use glyphs? Inscriptors can level up to 375, but can anyone use glyphs they make? Has anyone seen a final 1-375 Inscriptor leveling guide? I've ratpacked ~200 stacks of herbs, and one of my alts is a herbalist, so hopefully should be enough.
- is the bear mount definitely gone from ZA in patch 3.0?
- is the XP reduction from 60-70 30% per level or so?

Anything else you can do in patch 3.0 to get ready for WOTLK? Reserve your DK names, level your main/alt to 350+ inscription, level up any other profs you want, bank up 75k honor, maybe grab some 55-60 quest items (EPL turnins, cloth turnins) to speed up DK. I also grabbed some 60-70 turnins like scryer/aldor/CE/etc for quick XP boosts.

When you skipped the "vaginas" apparently you've skipped every other fucking post made in this thread and any other thread. The answers to your questions have been answered many times over. Super fail.

[BurnemWizfyre]

Originally Posted by Lithose

Notice something about these pictures? (Sorry, they are small, but you can see.)...I'm the MT idiot. Keep trying to make this argument attempting to trivialize peoples opinions as "desperate DPS". This change doesn't affect me at all, I don't DPS because there is a crazy shortage of tanks and because I have never enjoyed it.

Also, the second set is me being a tank on one of the server first UBRS runs (31/5/15 and still rocking the SM shield, go me.). And then on our first luci kill, mag kill, ony kill (lol go go drac defector)..Yeah, I play DPS lots, asshole.

Go on though, keep dodging.

You want a cookie or something? Ive did all that shit to, but as a healer. Sorry if you feel sorry these pure dps cant face roll and beat other people regardless of skill. If you want to know how i really feel about it, imagine someone sitting in a chair flipping off their computer screen with a smile, thats what i think of your opinion. Oh and im sure you dont give a shit about my opinion, however at least my opinion is supported by blizzard. ,,I,,

[Lithose]

Originally Posted by BurnemWizfyre

You want a cookie or something? Ive did all that shit to, but as a healer. Sorry if you feel sorry these pure dps cant face roll and beat other people regardless of skill. If you want to know how i really feel about it, imagine someone sitting in a chair flipping off their computer screen with a smile, thats what i think of your opinion. Oh and im sure you dont give a shit about my opinion, however at least my opinion is supported by blizzard. ,,I,,

Its ok to be sad about being owned for your terrible opinion/assumption. Cheer up though, some day not everyone is going to look down on you and laugh. Some day because of the wrath buffs your little hybrid will beat a terrible rogue on DPS and you can look up with your cheeto caked hands and say "I did it, I'm valuable, I have a purpose now."...I'm glad for you, I really am.

[BurnemWizfyre]

Owned? You assume i was talking to you when i said what i said. Just because you are the most vocal cunt in here about the changes doesnt mean i addressed you. I only addressed you when you qouted me, because wow you tank and did MC grats you for raiding for a long time in wow something most of the people on this board have been doing.

[Cybsled]

Since no one seems to be adding any Blizzcon news to this thread and the other thread is dead...

1) In Patch 3.1 ground mounts will no longer poof in water. They will now swim. That's a pretty sweet change for zones with this rivers that are too wide to jump across, but too short to warrant a full dismount.

2) Pandarens are unlikely (but not impossible) because there are some cultural perceptions of the Panda in China and they don't want to alienate the market

3) Arthas might make some cameos in 5man dungeons, much like you run across him in various quests

4)Strand of the Ancients is being made into a 15v15 and they are adding more tanks

5) They want the professions to have end-game relevance...which is why they've added stuff like the blacksmith sockets. (*cough* hi engineering, Bliz? *cough*)