[WoW] WotLK - Beta Patch Notes

[Clug]

Or here is another option if you don't feel like removing all the hybrids from the game.

If you are a hybrid you never get to respec, ever. That should be fine with you hybrids since you insist you just want to be one role in the first place.

No respecs for hybrids and you should be 100% of the power of a 'pure' class. Sounds fair.

[BurnemWizfyre]

Originally Posted by Clug

Or here is another option if you don't feel like removing all the hybrids from the game.

If you are a hybrid you never get to respec, ever. That should be fine with you hybrids since you insist you just want to be one role in the first place.

No respecs for hybrids and you should be 100% of the power of a 'pure' class. Sounds fair.

When i do this, i get to heal or tank or dps exactly on par with you? If so where do i sign up?

[Zerai]

If a hybrid dps class doesn't do as much dps as a pure dps class, you don't bring them. They therefore have no reason to exist.

Since they do and there isn't anything wrong with it, you guys have to deal with it.

The respec argument is null and void. Just shut the fuck up.

[Shinrai]

I would think the penalty for a hybrid would be that while they can perform acceptably in their role they are not as flexible / capable. Thus while a feral druid focusing on cat talents may be able to do close to rogue DPS they would not have the same range of support abilities like poisons, escapes, aggro redirects. By the same token no class should bring nothing but it's primary function.

Stated another way each class should have 10 "abilities" they bring to the game. A hybrid has to divide those 10 "abilities" over N roles and thus will have less to offer in each role.

However if they cannot fulfil the primary role (eg. do acceptable DPS) then they are worthless irrespective of any ability to support other roles.

Sadly blizzard doesn't seem to balance this way. They balance within a class (eg. each spec is roughly equivalent) and then across classes on the primary roles. The raid buffs is a start of comparing "abilities" across classes, but it's still incomplete and has lead to screw-ups like shadow priests having very little to offer.

I also think druids are probably "too hybrid" to ever be balanced. Having one class that can cover every role in the game and does so in a way that can be switched on the fly (forms) is impossible to balance. Too late for blizzard to change that though.

[Javvo]

Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

Yeah, so do away with all other classes and let's play druids. After four years all those druids could roll a mage or rogue if they want to be nothing but dps. The fact your class has massive flexibility between roles is the price you should pay for having slightly reduced effectiveness at the single roles. And, if this whole shitstorm comes up about, "Waaaah! I won't get an invite!" then maybe start playing with friends rather than min/maxing fucking accountants who only want you because you contribute 50 dps more than the next class on the roster.

"Yeah dat der feral druid sure can offtank a mob then help heal her her her"

You're a fucking moron for thinking that a class should have less effectiveness than other because they have talent trees that are vastly different.

Should paladins and druids be the worst healers because they have a tanking dps and healing tree, while shaman and priests can only dps and heal onnoes!!!

Should rogues do less dps because they can tank Illidan? I mean that's clearly your definition of class "flexibility", right?

[Makata]

Originally Posted by Mageling

Do you understand that feral can fucking tank?

Go take your Rogue and tank a boss?

Yeah, that's fucking cute.

Thanks for reinforcing the point? You want to be able to dps AND tank? And you don't think that should come at SOME penalty for being all in 1 class? Seriously?

Originally Posted by Pyros

I don't really see an issue with ferals doing as much dps as rogues, considering it requires a specific spec, and specific gear.

What possible motivation can there be for someone to play a rogue then? If you get bored of melee, you can respec, regear, and heal. Or nuke. Or tank. I have to get another 70's reputations all to exalted, get badges, etc, etc, etc.

Originally Posted by Javvo

Should rogues do less dps because they can tank Illidan? I mean that's clearly your definition of class "flexibility", right?

It's kind of sad that you're grasping at straws that frantically that you actually use rogue and tank in the same sentence.

[Javvo]

Originally Posted by Makata

What possible motivation can there be for someone to play a rogue then?

Because rogues at the moment bring great single target DPS. In the expansion rogues will still be doing great single target DPS while their utility is getting buffed. So what if a hybrid is next to you, above you, or just below you on the charts? Do you really think cutting edge guilds are going to give ret paladins tank gear over their offtank druid so the paladin could go hearth and respec?

[LadyVex]

I've been against hybrid classes being as good as pure classes for awhile now, BUT...alot of that was sorta changed by the fact the hybrid classes could kinda accept not being as good at dps and what have you by the fact they brought some valuable utility.

It's exceptionally hard now, because as has been stated, dps values flatlined and the unique utility given to some classes has been taken away, so it comes down to bringing pure specs, and then specs who have buffs.

I hate how they nerfed utility; I understand hybrids, as I have a feral druid and if I can't tank like another tank I am useless. I don't expect to dps like a rogue because, well, I'd rather be a rogue. But I like feral tanking. That might be contradictory.

Also, the whole argument about how you can "reroll" another character is fucking RETARDED. I mean more retarded than the respec argument. Rerolling requires reputation grinding, honor grinding and a ton of other fucking shit. Just throw it the fuck out. If this were Final Fantasy you'd be right on the money, however it isn't. There is more to look at than just wanting to dps but you're a resto druid.

And, whoever wrote -internets telling me to cry more AND shut the fuck up; those are two different things and I cannot do both at once, you fucking dickless retard.

Right now I cannot begin to fathom where this all goes. They're relegated everything into a mishmash of bullshit. You can have unique classes but without the unique abilities they once had they just get thrown to the sidelines. From what I've been hearing about shadowpriests it feels like I got thrown back into the MC days. (I mean that literally; especially with rogue domination, yea FU your 9 rogues on Ragnaros, we did it with 2.)

[Caocao]

So it's obvious that Blizzard is really pushing the game towards small groups of gamers etc and rightfully so. My question is are there any plans for housing/guild housing/etc in the near future? It'd be instanced of course, but having something just for your guild would be something I'd really like to see implemented. It would come w/ all the bells and whistles like vendors, bind area, ports to other cities etc. I really liked how EQ2's guild system kinda awarded the guild w/ certain things and maybe they could implement a system that allows you to purchase ports and vendors etc through something like that.

Is this a bad idea and why? Also if you know of any blue posts about this some paraphrasing would be awesome. Thanks~

[Zehn - Vhex]

Housing has been on the 'to do' list for nealry 6 years now. Thing is, they can't think of way to fuck it up bad enough to make it a 'blizzard' version of something that works perfectly fine in other games (re: Looking For Group, match-making pvp, etc...).

Eventually they'll figure out a way to make it terrible, like require that you farm at least 8 dailies before you can 'rest' in your home or some stupid shit and then they'll implement it.

Maybe I'm overly cynical but Blizzard shit has become so hit and miss these days you need to wonder what the fuck happened.

[TheCutlery]

Originally Posted by Caocao

So it's obvious that Blizzard is really pushing the game towards small groups of gamers etc and rightfully so. My question is are there any plans for housing/guild housing/etc in the near future? It'd be instanced of course, but having something just for your guild would be something I'd really like to see implemented. It would come w/ all the bells and whistles like vendors, bind area, ports to other cities etc. I really liked how EQ2's guild system kinda awarded the guild w/ certain things and maybe they could implement a system that allows you to purchase ports and vendors etc through something like that.

Is this a bad idea and why? Also if you know of any blue posts about this some paraphrasing would be awesome. Thanks~

Please explain to me what the goddamned fucking obsession is with player housing.

Of course, you want shit that exists in every other part of the fucking world inside your own little faggot fucking house...how could I be so blind.

Get the fuck over it. It's not gonna happen because it's a gay idea and it doesn't fucking matter anyway.

Jesus christ

[Lenaldo]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

The "You can just respec!" argument is pretty much just as retarded as the "But we're melee we take more damage!" argument. You'll never see people stop using it though.

25mans in TBC:

Gruuls

Maulger- Advantage to being ranged(less running around + dpsing mage tank).

Gruul - huge advantage to range (spreading out for falling rocks, threat capped by 2nd tank)

SSC

Hydross - advantage ranged.. ignoring the AoE aspect.... being melee puts you in danger during water phase

Lurker- advantage to bring ranged(dont have to worry about whirl)

Leo- lol at range advantage

FLK- Range advantage.. again lots of moving + priest water

TW- no real advantage here.. except melee cant really AoE the adds(well they could, but it would significantly hurt their dps)

Vashj- huge advantage range... striders+p3

Tempest keep-

Alar- Advantage ranged.... fire rings on floors, phase 1, p2 birds, etc... pretty much this whole fight

VW- Even.. melee dont have to dodge orbs but take periodic arcane damage.. meaning they require a dedicated healer to keep them up. Ranged have to dodge orbs, but if they arnt retarted take no additional healing from the raid

Solarian - No real advantage(assuming you dont count the AoE aspect)

Kael- Advantage range.. this one should be pretty obvious

Hyjal

Rage- advantage range.. they can move out of DnD and still dps... melee can not

Aneth- advantage range.... melee are clumped thus take a lot more swarm damage

Kaz- advantage Melee... YAY

Azgalor- advantage ranged.. hell melee are pretty much pointless for a majority of the fight due to gay mechanics

Archimonde - advantage range for sure.. melee are really dependent on the flames not deciding to fuck them

BT

Najentus- advantage ranged.... melee get splash damage .. thus resulting in significant more healing.

Supremus- ranged

Akama- melee?

Gorefiend - even

BB- tbh this is a hard one.. if you dont make melee do blood boils its "even"... but if you require them to do bloodboils then its not even comparable.. however, melee seem to benefit better from enrage than ranged.. soid say its pretty even

RoS- id give this one to melee... but not by much

Mother- none

Council - ranged by far

Illidan - ranged for all aspects of this fight...

Sunwell

Kalec- ranged... melee get fucked cause or portal timers and having to back out of dps range before they portal bomb other melee.. again the mechanic of stacking hurts them




You get the idea......... In nearly all these fights being melee means you will take more damage and/or have less dps uptime due to shitty mechanics. A lot of these fights were first done with very little melee(lol gruul 1.0?) just to account for this... Ever try doing gruul with a melee heavy raid back early in tbc? it was fucking impsosible due to falling rocks on him almost 100% of the time. Again, how much do you think ranged would bitch if every fight in the expansion had the kazzak mechanic in it? Regardless this is off-topic now and belongs in a different thread.... im done arguing this stuipd point...

[Caocao]

Lol, the cynical part is palpable to say the least. I had no idea it was already on the list for 6 years -.- Unfortunately I do see your point on them putting some ridiculous prerequisite such as 8 dailies bit.

[Agraza]

What with achievements, dailies, BoA items, etc. it seems like housing is just around the corner as the next go-to idea to maintain their stranglehold of the market and expand further into the "mainstream".

Their art team is undoubtedly still busy creating non-player character models, locations, and equipment to flesh out end-game LK, but once they're done they could be put to work on guild housing. We did just get guild banks recently, and now we're getting achievements for status items. It's a sensible next step.

More than anything I hope the UI team has already begun work on the default itemrack mod.

On that note, I haven't seen much feedback on the built-in threat meter. Does it work well enough to forego Omen, or will it just make Omen that much more accurate?

[Ninen]

And we're back to the eternal hybred vs pure debate. We had it in EQ, we're having it here, we'll have it in every god damn game that tries to do hybrids.

If everything is zerosum, then hybrids get to go the whole "jack of all trades, master of none" route. As such, unless the Developers go crazy with mid-fight change ups, cutting edge guilds won't take them over pure's who are always going to be better.

If however, the hybrids are equal to pures, but still have all their "change on a dime" goodness, there is no place for a pure. At all. Why bring a DPS, when you can bring a DPS that can HEAL or TANK if the shit hits the fan with a [insert action easier than recruiting/leveling 2nd character] (yes yes, specs, gear, all that doesn't allow that to work in WoW).

Original wow tried to go the first option, but threw in enough unique nifties that you still wanted to bring Mr. 50% DPS/50% healer.

The scales started to shift towards the "more equal to pure" side of things. And the Buff redesign has removed quite a bit of the hybrid uniqueness.

But the fact that 1 character can, with Respec, and gear swap, be a whole different category *does* need to factor in *someplace*. It's another intangible parcel in the whole "this class gives up X% dps for X% utility" that has been reduced on the buff level, but *still* in effect on a more subtle level.

And the fact that each of us players, and probably each individual Developer, counts that X% differently is what is likely to sink this whole damn mess.