[WoW] WotLK - Beta Patch Notes

[TheCutlery]

Originally Posted by CXB

Lastly, another thing that has irritated me is stupid, completely unnecessary buffs. C'mon cheat death? Why the fuck was blind changed from a poison? That change made no sense and is synonymous with suddenly making disarm trap work at 20 yds (which even makata acknowledges as over the top). Yes, clearly hunters were dominating so hard they needed rogues to disarm their shit from a mile away.

That's how they got to the place they are. Unnecessary buff after unnecessary buff.

Rogues were too kiteable apparantly, so they got 1) cloak of shadows, 2) Deadly throw 3) shadowstep.

Deadly throw is pretty meh as a skill, so hey, lets tack on a fucking interupt onto it too, via a glove bonus.

Rogues are too squishy, so lets give them 40% dodge via agility, cloak of shadows, and then cheat death too, just in case someone accidently hits them.

Hunters mark really fucks rogues...should make vanish remove it. Check.

Blind was countered by something other than a PvP trinket! We need something way better than that to be competitive? Okay, done. Know what else? We'll make it so the cooldown of the skill is lower than the cooldown of the counter, via talents.

Cloak of Shadows nerfed to 2 min cooldown (up from 1) in latest patch, but then added to talents in Subtlety to bring it back to 1 min. Oh, awesome. Really stops those combat rogues from fucking me up in the arena all the time. They try to make it look like they're nerfing rogues, but still don't fucking change anything.

Enrage effects getting you down? No sweat, rogues will have a poison to remove them soon enough! Why? Just fucking why? Are they hurting so badly that they need all this shit to even survive?

[Qhue]

I'd like to see a really good MMO whose lead designers played, say, mages as their favorite class since their first high school D&D game.

[Zerai]

Originally Posted by Kais[]

But no, theres little to no discussion on 13k DK scourge strike crits, heroic leap + titan's grip whirlwinds, or ludicrious ret pal dps. Or hey, what about those priest changes. Can we get a breakdown on the hunter changes and pet abilities? Apparently not.

DK ability is broken. Just like the ret pal got mentioned in passing. It'll get fixed.

Heroic leap is whatever. Currently though, the whirlwind with TG are hitting pretty weak.

Priest changes are pretty unspectacular. They really haven't changed much and they aren't going to become powerhouses.

Hunters are also broken, so they need their polish pass.

Rogues are already broken in live, so seeing them get buffed gets people pissed.

Here's a hint: rogues aren't dominating. Warriors and druids are.

Want to know why? Warrior alone loses to most other classes. Warrior is fucking hoss with support. How do you kill them? kill their support. Oh wait..it's a druid. That's why warriors are where they are. Nerf druids, warriors fall hard. Rogues however, can group with anyone and dominate.

[Horse]

Originally Posted by Makata

I cannot believe you have the balls to say this like you're some unique fucking snowflake. You really think every one of my shivs applies? Every kidney hits? Ghostly always lands when I need a little defense? Vanish always puts me in stealth? No mace stuns through my evasion? Fuck you. RNG is absolutely retarded and so are you for defending it.

Likewise for you to somehow think your class isn't the least resistant to RNG out of every class in the game.

Maximum 6 seconds stun per 20 seconds time frame vs your 3 second intercept stun per 15 seconds + 3 second mace stun every what .. 10? Yea .. you REALLY wish you had stuns. Poor you.

Controlled stuns.

Who says you should be able to? We are the kings of melee in a mobility spec. You should have to KILL US not just roll the dice and make us useless.

You're the only class that has mobility outside of druids. Why should any high dps class get mobility?

I think we are being a tad hyperbolic on how powerful rogues are, but the bolded is what really pisses me off.

Why the fuck are rogues so durable? They are are high dps/ high control class like mages and warlocks, who are fragile for a reason. My 3v3 is ms/ret/resto and we're only in the mid 1800s as we need more practice and our gear is behind (so feel feel to disagree if you have more experience, even though I know I'm right) but for the vast majority of teams that have rogues on them, the rogue is the last favorable target and almost never the first target. The only exception I can think of is war/rog/dru, which isn't terribly common and attacking the rogue is usually just a setup for a hard swap to the druid anyway.

Secondly, being a counter to everything -- no, rogues should not be able to go toe to toe with a warrior if they have all that anti caster bullshit too. Instead blizzard adds things like dismantle, which combined with evasion is a stupid amount of nigh-retpal immunity (and I assume it's pretty bad for DK too), completely fucks with paladins/warriors playing defensively, and shits down shamans' throats since most of their AC comes from their shield and they get hosed by rogues anyway.

Lastly, another thing that has irritated me is stupid, completely unnecessary buffs. C'mon cheat death? Why the fuck was blind changed from a poison? That change made no sense and is synonymous with suddenly making disarm trap work at 20 yds (which even makata acknowledges as over the top). Yes, clearly hunters were dominating so hard they needed rogues to disarm their shit from a mile away.

Hunters, at one point, dominated rogues. But by changes that were made to rogues so that they were stronger against casters, they removed every single fucking part of that relationship that made hunters, you know, hunt "the most mobile and elusive" of classes.

Blind was changed from a poison because it was ridiculous that dwarven priests in season 1 had stoneform breaking it, making them clearly the best anti-rogue priest. Which is saying a ton. On top of that, it made non-dwarf priests the only healers that couldn't mitigate the rogue poisons.

The CC chains that rogue + mage can do on one character right now is ridiculous, and they're adding 5 sec stun to ice? +dmg buffs to rog? Right.


Rogues were the pet class. Lovers of ADHD spamfests since beta were sad in the pants that they died a lot after jumping out and wrecking a caster. (like what happens to most people except rogues when dealing with a warlock) pre-COS I used to hunt rogues down on my shadowpriest and destroy them.

The onyxia book used to be a level 69 skeleton that would see through stealth, hunt rogues and i'd just see HK:Scout on my screen a few seconds after summoning it.

So they did have their share of being dominated. What's odd is that they're the only class that is currently not dominated at all. I mean, they ARE, but by who? Prot paladins? Meanwhile other classes can list multiple specs/classes that dominate them.

Lets get a few things clear. Stealth is not stealth. It is invisibility. It has basically zero shortcomings except for the disadvantage that non-humans get.

They would have to basically change stealth to have it make any sort of fucking sense for there to be any balance. Even worse when you KNOW THE STEALTHER IS THERE and there is little or nothing you can do about it. Flares don't even work for fuck sake.

Second of all, passing through characters is a fucking joke. Advantage melee.

Next, before COS any healing priest could spam heal themselves while keeping up swp and win eventually. Now rogues have anti-healing debuffs?


I mean, c'mon. There has to be a point where actually playing a healer besides druid gets a fucking bonus against people who are killers. Clearly, healers are not KILLER PLAYERTYPES. Let the fucking killers kill each other.

Take healers out of the fucking equation already, like druids already are, and balance the game around a healthy 2 killers < 1 healer. Make their fucking epeens shrivel with woe when they realize that bursting someone dead should only be possible through a heroic fucking effort, good communication and precision. Not LOL DUMP CC. Guess what happens when it is just a CC dump? Magically the healer with the most resistance to CC (and most CC themselves) rises to the top. I wonder who the fuck that is.


The bottomline with any game, especially one that pretends its about skill and not dice and "what class you happen to be" is that somewhere along the line it should be about what the player is doing, not what the mechanics are allowing or preventing them from doing.

Something is simply put, fucking broken, when you're just running GAME SIM against itself and seeing how the dice play out based on the classes involved. PMR is an example of "fucking broken." Rogue and Druid dominance in 2s and 3s, the same. The win percentage (not to mention the actual games and teams playing) of builds in 5s. You guessed it.

So if 2s and 3s are so ridiculous to balance, force people into 5s. Ooh, there's that dirty word again: requirements. But please stop pretending like folks won't figure out what hedges the wins in any situation and build towards that.

It's rather gross that mace fun effect is FINALLY getting squashed and healing debuffs were passed around. I mean, how much fucking data is required to see how good warriors have far and above been than everyone else in arena? Just because rogues are on that gravy train now doesn't mean all is fair. Whatev.

[Clug]

Holy fuck the QQ from you scrubs in this thread is amazing. Where are the 2000+ rated players whining? Can we at least get whines from people who have a fucking clue?

[TheCutlery]

Originally Posted by Clug

Holy fuck the QQ from you scrubs in this thread is amazing. Where are the 2000+ rated players whining? Can we at least get whines from people who have a fucking clue?

Way to contribute bub. Tell me where we're off base here, and we'll talk about it.

What's the counter to a rogue? You can name a counter to every other class. I want to know what the rogue's is.

[Horse]

Originally Posted by Kais[]

Or hey, what about those priest changes.

Shadow Priest changes:

Inner fire will grant 1 or 200 spelldamage, depending on talents and level. This starts at 71 so far, so when they put the changes in it live we won't see it.

Twin disciplines has been +5 damage but is supposed to be 5%

We've got new interactions with spirit via a few new talents. One of them triggers spirit tap while giving 50% more spirit on crits.

We've gained more threat reduction. I suppose that's to, uh, make VE more attractive to cast? Instead of it being never cast unless you're in a gimmick fight.

Weaving was removed from helping all casters to only helping ourselves. Minor buff for multiple targets. Minor nerf from protecting our fucking dots on targets. I guess "class synergy" is the same as "requires going with a rogue or aff lock."

Shadow resilience is now flat to melee damage rather than chance to be spell crit. Maybe someone will spec for this now.

silence off of gcd. And its a good thing too since every other DPS class has been given the same treatment, except GCDs actually substantially hurt their dps unlike shadow. oops!

fade reduces time lost to interrupt effects while in shadowform if you talent it... except then the interrupt effect cap was put in. So, uh? maybe i'll still never have ever gotten the fade cooldown talents since pre-launch. niiiice. Shouldn't there be a stat somewhere that says 0% of priests have EVER GOTTEN FADE TALENTS IN SHADOW TREE. Seriously.

Shadow power. Lower crit rate but a crit bonus that other casters have had for gosh golly forever. Scaling, mmmm catch the pre-tbc fever.

misery going to 3% hit raidwide instead of 5% damage. There's a sweetspot for that being a buff. It's right between my balls and my asshole.

pain and suffering. flay refreshes swp and death hurts us less. Nice!

psychic horror. your target gets horrored for a shorter duration than PS. Great for getting some space away from classes that will just fucking own us when its down anyway.

vt - turned to give that same raidwide 10 player mana buff that others have.

twisted faith: +shadow damage based on spirit. except oops spirit is on healing gear that doesn't have hit. also buffs other spells based on how many dots are up. I promise nobody would give a fuck if this just buffed the spells without worrying about what dots are up.

dispersion. reduces damage by 90%, can't attack or cast. can move. grants 6% base mana/hps every second for 6. Oh yeah, this is effected by -healing debuffs.




summary: people shitting pants because survival hunters and ret paladins currently outdamage shadowpriests by 50-60%. classes that were already strong against spriests are getting stronger. DPS at mid 70s lower than peak dps of classes in tbc right now at 70. Oops!


But flay will crit!!!! And dots too!!!! Lots more to come! Rite???



Anyway, they're working on it and have a lot of room to improve and/or cut other classes down at the knees. It was very disheartening to see the changes and then read the post that priests and druids were the most "finished" at that point... yet druids since then have gotten quite a few substantial changes.

Wahh *poops shadow diaper*

I think the general "hey that's cool" factor is missing here, as well as the "look at how my overpowered class dropz 10k bombz that will get nurfed lol maybe lol" that has the priests riled up. For instance the only youtube videos of hardcore priest ownage are of the level 70 rogues curbstomping level 76 priests. Yay!

[The Ancient]

[WoW] WotLK - Beta Patch Notes thread.

Not QQ about TBC PvP for the millionth fucking time thread.

We should just lock it and start a new one every time new info comes out. Past 20 pages and every WoW thread is the same.

[Makata]

Originally Posted by Horse

Likewise for you to somehow think your class isn't the least resistant to RNG out of every class in the game.

I can't even wrap my head around how to respond to this. I'm not going to stand on a soapbox and say we're the most reliant upon RNG but there's no way we're the least. I cannot remember the last I actually resisted a nova or polymorph without cloak up. What can you possibly say about mages, warlocks, druids, shamans, and hunters about RNG? The 5% chance to resist something?

Controlled stuns.

I see your controlled stuns and raise you FREE STUNS. I have to give up damage to use my 1 in-combat stun. You actually GET RAGE when yours procs.

You're the only class that has mobility outside of druids. Why should any high dps class get mobility?

Because what good is mobility if I can't pressure a healer? How would rog/healer ever win if the opposing team's healer could just stand there and effortlessly heal through the damage?

[Trifle]

Originally Posted by Horse

Blind was changed from a poison because it was ridiculous that dwarven priests in season 1 had stoneform breaking it, making them clearly the best anti-rogue priest.

Blind was changed from a poison because stoneform was actually useful for something? lol. Quick, better make viper sting a physical effect !

On the other hand, will of the forsaken still removes fears, charms and wyvern sting just fine. Incidentally stoneform removes wyvern sting too.

I'm not sure what the problem with dwarves having an advantage vs rogues is. Undead certainly have a hell of an advantage vs warlocks and priests.

[Horse]

Originally Posted by Clug

Holy fuck the QQ from you scrubs in this thread is amazing. Where are the 2000+ rated players whining? Can we at least get whines from people who have a fucking clue?

Wouldn't the whines come from the people who's class doesn't fit into a 2000+ team?

Just trying to help you dispel the notion that you are absolutely downy, when 1 out of 5 of the 3v3s above 2k are one single build and in 2s on my battlegroup you go against a war/dru lok/dru rog/dru 75% of the time.

I think a good clue is when half the fuckin teams have some joke regarding mace stun and cyclone in them.

[Athryn]

Originally Posted by TheCutlery

Way to contribute bub. Tell me where we're off base here, and we'll talk about it.

What's the counter to a rogue? You can name a counter to every other class. I want to know what the rogue's is.

Are you talking in arena or in duels? In arena plenty of combos can stop the rogue from being effective while they kill his teammates but I'd need to know which specific combo you're refering to. In duels any decent paladin or warrior will win 9/10 times, decent mages will go 50/50 at worste and then orc warlocks/hunters can usualy go 50/50 or better. The only people rogues really dominate are bad and/or undergeared players. I'm currently doing the honor grind on an alt and yes having a full s4 rogue stun me form 100-0% sucks but I know if I I was in s4 that wouldn't be possible so it doesn't really bother me. Unfortunately most people haven't played high level arena in decent gear so they don't understand that rogue who just cs->ks you to death are pretty terrible and will fail when they stop outgearing people. I'm not saying rogues aren't a strong class but the amount of crying done over them annoys me.

[Horse]

Originally Posted by Trifle

Blind was changed from a poison because stoneform was actually useful for something? lol. Quick, better make viper sting a physical effect !

On the other hand, will of the forsaken still removes fears, charms and wyvern sting just fine. Incidentally stoneform removes wyvern sting too.

I'm not sure what the problem with dwarves having an advantage vs rogues is. Undead certainly have a hell of an advantage vs warlocks and priests.

Shrug. The racials have always been a pointless point of contention.

Dwarves got the big axe after dominating S1 with fear ward and blind removal. It was bad enough and the weapon / armor discrepancies were large enough that rogues were nonentities in s1.


And wotlk discussion ought to be grounded in where any given class is coming from, ie, TBC. People downplaying how good they have it currently in PVP to validate buffs that are unfathomable to others is what wow thrives on, right?

[Horse]

Originally Posted by Athryn

The only people rogues really dominate are bad and/or undergeared players.

Hahaha... Ok.

[Mageling]

Originally Posted by Kais[]

But no, theres little to no discussion on 13k DK scourge strike crits, heroic leap + titan's grip whirlwinds, or ludicrious ret pal dps. Or hey, what about those priest changes. Can we get a breakdown on the hunter changes and pet abilities? Apparently not.

Shadow Priests are still terrible you fucking cock gobbler. I know it might have been easy to miss aside the pages of Rogue crap, but holy fuck, do you even read?