Your thoughts on instancing and zones?

[hauwk]

Main beef with instancing: It takes away the politics and competition of contested encounters.

I used to love the rush and competition of beating out another guild to take down a raid target that they could possibly gather and steal from us if they won the race. That's a big part of endgame to me, the competition and fight to get the target downed and move on for the night.

Although I see the merit's of single groupable instancing dungeons I still am not a big fan of it. Just as it works with a large raid force and a big boss mob, it can also work for groups in dungeons.

Im just not a very big fan of it.

[Dumar]

Originally Posted by hauwk

Although I see the merit's of single groupable instancing dungeons I still am not a big fan of it.

these companies could, you know, make multiplayer games. the only real reason they use the extra m is because it's more or less a buzzword. their games have antialiasing too! so cool.

[Grave]

Originally Posted by Vorph

Did you never do Castle Nektropos? That zone blew away every other dungeon in the game, and doing it without spoilers was the best dungeon experience I've had in any mmo. It never would have worked without being instanced though. Too much of the scripting that made the place so cool would've been ruined by the presence of other players.

And on the opposite end of the spectrum, every time I ever went to Fallen Gate or Stormhold there were people bottom-feeding on bosses that were just barely shy of turning grey to them. CT was pretty bad too. Runnyeye was always terrible for people jacking named spawns, and Permafrost was really the only non-instanced zone that was at all playable to me--mainly because it was such a pain in the ass to get to that it was empty half the time anyway.

I did Castle Nektropos, and yeah, it was great. But, like I said originally, I'm not advocating completely non-instanced gameplay here. I'm a fan of both depending on the dungeon and the experience it is intended to offer. As you said, Nektropos was more scripted and thus needed to be an instance, and that is exactly what I want from instances.

When I want a more social, dungeon crawling, longer lasting experience, I prefer a non-instanced dungeon. In WoW, as soon as you finish the instance that group is DONE. "Thx, good run. Later." Sometimes I want to get with some people and just settle in for a longer session, non-instanced dungeons allow you to do that in a rewarding setting. This is how you make new friends and, really, it's one of the draws of the MMO genre, or at least it should be.

[Zehn - Vhex]

The problem is the whole point of not-instancing is so you can be dicks towards other people. All conviluted systems you put into place in order to relieve this problem just push you more and more towards instancing anyways. Instancing is not a band-aid fix to a problem, it's a real goddamn solution, and a fucking good one at that.

What are the alternatives, realistically? Dynamically self-generating content is still technically unfeasible no matter how many unicorn farts and rainbow kisses Dumar wishes on.

Wide spacious lands filled with repetitive, similar loot dropping dungeons turned out to be a failure because then the dungeons feel far too modular and lack character. Hi2u VG.

Vorph is right. As soon as you implement loot dropping mobs all possibility of dungeons just being another zone you pass through goes right out the fucking window. Jintha'Alor was nice for an 'outdoor' dungeon because you kinda just ran through it for your quests and then moved on. And it might work as a non-instanced leveling dungeon too since it's designed for the mid-level 40's character in mind.

However...let's pretend Magisters Terrace was un-instanced. Can you imagine the clusterfuck? On PvP servers alone there were a good 100~200 corpses sitting outside. You'd have 300 people vying for tag rights on the bosses. And saying, "Well fuck, just make it really big and have random named spawns!" defeats the purpose of having a dungeon in the first place.

[Miele]

Originally Posted by Araxen

I like the way WoW does it the best. It has a nice balance between instanced and non-instanced. The only thing I wish they would add is social dungeons that are pretty huge in landscape like lguk, seb, solb was.

The biggest problem I have with this is easy to explain: the average wow player is someone I wish wouldn't even be playing my game, let alone in the same zone as I am.
I won't try to bait Zehn in a this vs that argument as it's not my intention, but when I think about MMOs, I always think about my group of people "and the rest", where for rest I usually intend people that put stuff on the AH as their usefulness is limited to that.
While I always managed to interact with proper english language with other players in EQ/EQ2, in wow it happened rarely, admittely thanks to the fact I didn't need these other people 99.9% of the times.

In essence instances are necessary to give devs the possibility of working on storylines inside dungeons, see EQ2 nektropos castle just to mention one.

I can't see any usefulness in having shared dungeons, the last one I played in was Sanctum of Scaleborn and let me tell you that the constant griefing and name calling (albeit in proper english) was more irritating than "community building". In fact it made me hate a good quarter of the server.

Now, if you talk about zones or seamless architecture, only a tard will tell you that zoning is better, but when it's done with bells at docks ala EQ2 it loses a lot, this is and will always remain true.

[needraRZ]

I think a key to making 'social-dungeons' work is PVP.

A large part of the immersion is broken when people are forming an orderly que to kill level_boss_001. Add in the mix of PVP, risk and politics and it all tends to sort itself out.

Another option is to design the open dungeon so it doesn't support camping a single room for a long time. For example, make the bosses 'daily' for you like daily quests in WOW so theres no option to perma camp the room.

Next create a placeholder and set the rules so once you clear the boss and kill the ph, the room fills with lava slowly or so and you have to take the back exit which fires you back to the zone line or such.

Pitch the dungeon as competition-friendly. If it was designed in such a way that encouraged competition between groups, and supported it well then it adds more interest.

The number of potential problems caused by this type of solution are almost as numerous as the solutions. But if it was carefully thought out it could work. For example..

Problem: My suck group never gets the boss because other groups clear faster
Solution: Provide minor bosses which the group can kill which create a shorter path to main_boss_02. If this group has been in the dungon for a while they are slightly better placed to clear to the boss when he spawns.

etc etc.

[Sharmai]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

good stuff

Zehn is right. No matter how good the concept it would just never work in practice in WoW there are to many players. If it was done then they couldn't have just one outdoor dungeon or else there would be 100+ horde and 100+ alliance killing each other and every mob while lagging the entire zone into a crawl at the same time. eventually there would be 1-4 "I R COCKBLOCK" guilds that would bring 50 members where 45 perma-lock down the zone while 5 run around killing the bosses.

If there are 6-7 outdoor zones this lessens some what but then you have perma camped bosses. If the bosses have long respawn times then you just have those same guilds flying from outdoor zone to outdoor zone killing the bosses and moving on.

Would it be cool to have those type of zones? In theory but then it would have to be zones where the barrier to entry made it so only the top 10 elite guilds on the server could be there. If that happened then the content would be a waste to 99.9999995% of wow.

[Grave]

Originally Posted by Sharmai

Zehn is right. No matter how good the concept it would just never work in practice in WoW there are to many players.

There really aren't too many players.

This is why I compared it to outdoor zones in WoW. I played on a "Full" server and never had issues questing or doing whatever I wanted in TBC, where the entire high level population only has what, 10 zones to run around in? Sure, early on you might run into some overpopulation, but every game is going to have issues early. As long as the dungeon is big enough, has multiple entrances/exits, multiple hubs and points of interest, I don't see why it would be an issue. As the game matured and had more and more content it would be even less of an issue and groups of the intended level would find it even easier to run around in the dungeon.

Originally Posted by Sharmai

If it was done then they couldn't have just one outdoor dungeon or else there would be 100+ horde and 100+ alliance killing each other and every mob while lagging the entire zone into a crawl at the same time. eventually there would be 1-4 "I R COCKBLOCK" guilds that would bring 50 members where 45 perma-lock down the zone while 5 run around killing the bosses.

Again, why does the simple fact that it's a dungeon mean people would rush to it, fight over it and try to cockblock it? I'm not talking about a progression or raid dungeon here, as I said those should be instanced. This would just be another path of leveling progression with loot that was better than what you could get from a normal zone, on par with what instances provide vs. quests in WoW. Would you really have your whole guild cockblocking a blue BOP breastplate? I'm sure you'd have better things to do with your time.

[Sharmai]

Originally Posted by Grave

Again, why does the simple fact that it's a dungeon mean people would rush to it, fight over it and try to cockblock it? I'm not talking about a progression or raid dungeon here, as I said those should be instanced. This would just be another path of leveling progression with loot that was better than what you could get from a normal zone, on par with what instances provide vs. quests in WoW. Would you really have your whole guild cockblocking a blue BOP breastplate? I'm sure you'd have better things to do with your time.

You mean like this quest? Quest: Battle of the Crimson Watch - Thottbot: World of Warcraft
Or this? Quest: Nexus-King Salhadaar - Thottbot: World of Warcraft

Or do you mean an outdoor dungeon with mobs that have loot tables comparable to say Shadow Labs? Because that would be perma camped. If the loot is good enough to be worth bringing a 5 man to farm the bosses then there will be a ton of people farming it. If the loot is pretty good but more easily obtained by just jumping into a gank-free instance then people will go to the instance and the outdoor bosses will like those two quests above and rarely ever be done be anyone let alone guilds.

You couldn't make it a quest area or it will become perma camped again as people fight for the bosses for quest items. If its like the Orgila bosses then people will just show up and loot quest item and leave and it will be a ghost town again.

Outdoor zone + good loot table bosses = pema camped
Outdoor zone + mild loot table bosses = occasionally done but mostly ignored by all
outdoor zone + crappy loot table bosses = always ignored

If its worth getting then there will be four other pug's alongside mine vying for it. If it isn't then I and they won't be there either.

[Fendryl]

Originally Posted by hauwk

Main beef with instancing: It takes away the politics and competition of contested encounters.

I used to love the rush and competition of beating out another guild to take down a raid target that they could possibly gather and steal from us if they won the race. That's a big part of endgame to me, the competition and fight to get the target downed and move on for the night.

I think Blizzard's done a pretty good job of maintaining the thrill of a progression race, while removing the douchebaggery that comes with a contested encounter. This is at multiple levels too, when new content comes out there's a definite buzz about the world firsts, and who's going to get them, but it also even exists at lower levels - there's always somewhat of a rivalry between the horde & alliance front running guilds, and there's usually a decent amount of competition between the 1st & 2nd place on each side as well. The walls in sunwell did a pretty good job of reseting those races every few weeks as well. I wouldn't be surprised to see this mechanic repeated in the future.

[Ardbeg of AB]

I agree with the sentiment that instancing isnt a band-aid but a real solution.

Numbers is the key variable when it comes to how much need to be instanced, the larger the server populations become its, imo, less likely social dungeons or other contested content will work well.

With rose tinted glasses on the races for bosses in EQ1 or the social dungeons was kinda fun but I dont think I would want to go through it again. Was never at the cutting edge in EQ but up until and shortly after PoP there was always 2 or 3 other guilds that where after the same level of target. It worked mainly I think because there wasnt that many people involved in the racing. Still it was many an manhours spent sitting on the beach in PoT (or was it PoK) waiting for trackers to bring back reports on targets and the getting there in force before someone claimed it.

Was playing on Rallos Zek during vanilla EQ and then you knew basically everyone at any given time in LGuk atleast by name or reputaton. Even on PvP there was much PvP going on in LGuk and SolB from what I experience, people tried to get along, but how fun was it really to sit in Lord room and wait for pops when you had another group sitting at AM, etc etc.

Someone mentioned Jin'talor in WoW as an example of an sort of social "dungeon" in WoW. Jin'talor was fun and cool and worked from a social standpoint but only cause no one went there unless the where working on the handful of quests in that area. Drop in some loot dropping bosses there and I am certain the place would have turned into a shit fest. I however do thinkt the Jint'halor concept should be expanded on as some sort of "dungeon light" concept. Places like Zul'Farrak and Zul'Gurub could easily have been copy pasted and turned into open social quest areas where you didnt need to bring your own group but could team up with 1 or 3 people at location.

My general sentiment when it comes to instancing is I like it for dungeons and raids but somehow instancing of open world zones freaks me out. I have no problem there beeing 100 copies of a dungeon but if there is even 2 copies of the world zone connecting to the dungeons totally destroys my immersion.

[kudos]

WoW instancing doesn't bother me anymore to be honest. I actually seem to enjoy it. Sure I'd rather have every dungeon non-instanced but with the population the way it is(fucktards) and how many people play the game I'm pretty sure it's better off the way it is.

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

On the other hand, -fuck- zoning back and forth between east/west commons about 8 times because you forget which way you were facing. 8(

I guess you never bought the best spell in the entire game - truth north.

[Xaxius]

The crux of the issue seems to be the "boss" mobs and the phat lootz it drops. Why not just instance those in a public dungeon? For instance, in order to summon the named boss, you're required to find a random spawn off of trash in the dungeon. Hell you could have a repeatable quest that requires you to find the five shards of an amulet... each shard dropping from a different type of mob in the dungeon. Once you collect the shards and form the amulet, you spawn the boss which is locked to your specific group in the public dungeon. Have a lock-out for the boss (24hrs) or whatever for balence. Wouldn't this keep the balence of the social aspect of the game, with limiting the retardation that comes form contested content?

I know Vanguard attempted this with their famed AES system, but in more capable hands I'm sure it could be done.

[Digits]

Would people please stop saying 'What if this WoW instance, which was designed specifically as an instanced dungeon, was public? It would be awful!'

Of course it will be awful, it's a dungeon designed to be instanced for 5 players. From start to finish there is no thought process other than designing this hallway and this room to be as entertaining as possible for a group. With that said, if WoW had some expansive social dungeons it would be the perfect mmo for me. The entirety of BRM might work as a social dungeon because it's actually designed to have multiple paths in each section, with bosses and events in every corner. That might work, not that we'll ever know.

Another thing people are ignoring is the difficulty factor. By having social dungeons with good loot developers can add another layer of complexity to their design. They can add ghoul root in an undead dungeon filled with water. They can put roamers on a 5 minute respawn, a huge agro radius and triple attack. That would be considered just annoying in a regular instance, but in a social dungeon with constant respawns it's a flavor of challenge. If you haven't seriously played in social dungeons in years you may have forgotten the little things that make them more difficult and more entertaining. Other people might have cleared a path to two named, and only hit up one. You might be going through just as a named spawn, or you can get trained or you can just see a huge train go and be relieved when they don't destroy you. They aren't the end all answer to everything, but they are a tool that is going criminally underused.

If I wanted a good coop or single player game I can find them elsewhere, when it comes to an mmo I want a social experience that gives me a unique memory. Instances can provide just that, but there is no reason why social dungeons aren't equally employed in the current crop of games other than developer laziness and fear of treading away from the golden road.

Edit: I want to point out that I do love instances, and I wish there was a game with WoW caliber dungeons and EQ 1 and 2 caliber socials.

[Chaid]

Age of Conan reminded me just how annoying zoning is after playing WoW for years. Zoning into a tavern is superlame. There's no excuse for any new MMO to use world zoning as a technical crutch anymore. Of course it's hard. The WoW dev who created the zoneless system spent 12 straight months on it to get it right.

Instancing is here to stay, in some form or another. Even EQ capitulated, starting with the Plane of Time.