[WoW] 2.4.3 Patch Notes

[Zhakran]

Originally Posted by Nehrak

You mean like Blessing of Salvation -> Tranquil Air Totem?

Oh wait.

Yep, blessings are the ONLY things keeping paladins in raids. Ultra super hardcore guilds that can swing it will often just buff the raid with alts, at least for a couple blessings.

Paladins do still have wonderful utility. They are a useful 1x as a tank or a dps, depending on the fight, and blessings are probably the best buffs in the game. But their healing abilities are bottom of the barrel, easily.

[Ionsniper]

Theres definately a difference between heroic and non heroic. Non heroic with mixed group of BT geared peeps could get Ahune down to about 20% before we had the add phase again. In Heroic we were able to get him down to about 60% in the time he was down. Definately a difference.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Originally Posted by Zhakran

Yep, blessings are the ONLY things keeping paladins in raids. Ultra super hardcore guilds that can swing it will often just buff the raid with alts, at least for a couple blessings.

Paladins do still have wonderful utility. They are a useful 1x as a tank or a dps, depending on the fight, and blessings are probably the best buffs in the game. But their healing abilities are bottom of the barrel, easily.

Even Retadin's are pretty useless for m'uru. 6 minutes of trash clearing with a 90 second burn fight means your ability to keep 3 blessings up is kinda pointless and doesn't make up for being tied with shadowpriests for most terrible personal DPS.

Edit s/blessings/judgements

[Zhakran]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

Even Retadin's are pretty useless for m'uru. 6 minutes of trash clearing with a 90 second burn fight means your ability to keep 3 blessings up is kinda pointless and doesn't make up for being tied with shadowpriests for most terrible personal DPS.

Yeah, I agree, but having a prot pally for the void spawns is pretty standard. At least they can legitimately justify a spot in most raids, even if it's only one member :/

[Presarc]

Shit we use 3 prot pallies for M'uru.

[Xequecal]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

Even Retadin's are pretty useless for m'uru. 6 minutes of trash clearing with a 90 second burn fight means your ability to keep 3 blessings up is kinda pointless and doesn't make up for being tied with shadowpriests for most terrible personal DPS.

Edit s/blessings/judgements

Is ret DPS really that bad on Horde Paladins? I figured now that people have learned how to seal twist that Paladins would be breaking 2000 DPS at least, not sitting at 1500 with the shadow priests.

[Lithose]

Originally Posted by Zhakran

You are totally right in every way. People in real guilds knows this. Yeah a paladin can heal a tank, but are they good at? No, not compared to the other classes. You can get away with it often, but the ideal raid has 1 ret pally or 1 prot pally, depending on the fight, and alts blessing the rest of the raid. Doesn't always happen in reality, but that would be ideal.

Saying paladins are the best single target healers is so hilariously wrong I can't even begin to comprehend the lack of understanding that would go into such an assertion.

Every world first kill in sunwell......Had a healing paladin.

Go on though, add another stipulation to your "what defines a "real" raid guild"?

Glad though I can provide empirical evidence, mathematical evidence and all you can say its "hilariously" wrong. Dumb ass.

[Nehrak]

Anyone else getting some serious sexual tension vibes from Lithose and Deris?

Anyway, far be it for me to get involved in the whole bit about M'uru, having not done Sunwell in a raid setting so far (having to move and put computer into storage == qq), but really who cares? If the strat works with who you bring then it works, so why all this whining and crying about Ret DPS vs who has the top serverwide HPS and so on? Less whining about numbers, more whining about design flaws, imo! ... I better stop before I get myself excited by that idea further. I'd get crucified if anyone found out I feel they need to go back to the "Ruin at 50%" nerf again.

Oh dear, it slipped out. Damnit.

[Horse]

Originally Posted by Nehrak

Anyone else getting some serious sexual tension vibes from Lithose and Deris?

Anyway, far be it for me to get involved in the whole bit about M'uru, having not done Sunwell in a raid setting so far (having to move and put computer into storage == qq), but really who cares? If the strat works with who you bring then it works, so why all this whining and crying about Ret DPS vs who has the top serverwide HPS and so on? Less whining about numbers, more whining about design flaws, imo! ... I better stop before I get myself excited by that idea further. I'd get crucified if anyone found out I feel they need to go back to the "Ruin at 50%" nerf again.

Oh dear, it slipped out. Damnit.

Probably because mere mortal guilds can't come up with the 5-6 shaman it's ideal to have... or the AE healing that's ideal to stack... or are able to fill raids in Naxx 2.0 while telling their paladins to sit outside...

Making something easier (which translates into doable at all for those guilds just breaking into the place now) with a specific class is the core issue here, and that goes back to being able to bring classes that you happen to have and have them work, not fail or otherwise be at best marginally useful.

[Nehrak]

Originally Posted by Horse

Probably because mere mortal guilds can't come up with the 5-6 shaman it's ideal to have... or the AE healing that's ideal to stack... or are able to fill raids in Naxx 2.0 while telling their paladins to sit outside...

Making something easier (which translates into doable at all for those guilds just breaking into the place now) with a specific class is the core issue here, and that goes back to being able to bring classes that you happen to have and have them work, not fail or otherwise be at best marginally useful.

And that's why I bring up design flaws. You shouldn't have to rely on anything other than the vaguely termed "balanced group" to get by. Seriously, what exactly is that supposed to mean, balanced? It definitely shouldn't be "X of classes A B and C" but more "X DPS, X tanks, X healers" really. Anything that violates the latter makes me catch odors of rotten fish, because something sure stinks if it's not "you need a roughly even spread of each role" to get through, well, anywhere. Adjustments to that core ideal are all fine and dandy, but in a sense it should be making it harder on the group in question. (And I'm going to -internet anyone who brings up CH rotations from EQ, because we all know that was just plain silly to have to resort to. :P)

EDIT - To clarify, I mean you shouldn't have to resort to using a Resto Shaman over a Holy Paladin or Holy Priest over whomever to fill a slot for "healer". Any of them should fit nicely and be roughly on par with the other healing-spec classes. Otherwise there's a problem, Houston. The situation "should" be "A Shaman is be a healer" not "A healer is a Shaman" if you get what I'm saying.

[Saban]

All the other healing classes got amazing new heals in tBC, and only one of them had to spec to get it, The only great thing holy paladins got was SA which got nerfed 3 months into the expansion.

[brekk]

turn heroism into a 41 talent. 41 Elemental spell haste heroism. 41 Enchance melee heroism.

BAM! suddenly resto shammies arent a big DPS boost for the raid unlike the other healers.

[Deris]

Originally Posted by Lithose

Every world first kill in sunwell......Had a healing paladin.

Go on though, add another stipulation to your "what defines a "real" raid guild"?

Glad though I can provide empirical evidence, mathematical evidence and all you can say its "hilariously" wrong. Dumb ass.

Every world first kill could have benefitted MORE if the Paladin had a fully geared Resto Shaman or Holy Priest main, and had just logged out. This is a huge flaw.

EDIT: We only have 5 Shamans on tonight in raid :/. Wish we had a 6th/7th!

[BurnemWizfyre]

As someone who has healed since release in wow, i must agree that paladins only claim to fame right now are the blessings. Single target healing is all they are good for, now granted they have the ability to switch targets and heal and a good player might actually do ok, you would be better off having a shaman priest or a druid.

Single target healing, a shaman druid and a priest can all do the exact same thing as a paladin. A resto druid can easily put out the same hps as a paladin, but he can raid heal while he does it (bare in mind if the tank is taking alot of damage the less the druid will be able to raid heal as well, but not as often) where as the paladin is stuck spamming just that tank.

Shamans can chain heal as their main heal on a tank, effectively mt healing as well as raid healing and mt healing. Example on M'uru its typical to place just a shaman healing the tank on the back door and the melee with him with just the help of my blooms and bloom alone on the tank. The same time im blooming the back door tank, im solo healing the prot paladin, keeping blooms on the sent tank, and also healing myself and anyone else around me if i have the time or they happen to be in range on a 4 bloom cycle.

Priest can easily cover MT healing duties as well, on the front door we have a shaman using chain heal as the stand alone heal on the tank healing what little melee we have there and we tank them closer to the ranged so cheal bounces with a priest as the back up healer and coh for raid healing up front.

The other priest is healing the sent tank, along with a paladin (yes thats right 3 healers on the sent tank, GG keyboard turning void blast missing warrior) and coh healing when able.

So thats our healing set up, 2 resto shaman, 2 priest, 1 resto druid and a 1 paladin. I can promise you this, if we dint want to tell our good friend gtfo or we could afford the blessing loss we sure as shit could replace that paladin with any of the other 3 healers and not be gimped for it.

Now i wont sit here and try and rank the 4 healing classes as #1 or such, you can rank them however you want on the top 3 but anyone with a bit of intelligence knows that paladins are 4th on that list every time. There is nothing a paladin can do healing wise that another healer simply cant do, but not only can they do what the paladin does they can do other shit while they do what the only thing a paladin can do.

[Tancred]

2.4.3 = 243rd straight patch thread that has devolved into Paladin-related whining.