[WoW] How to start leading raids? (ZA in particular) - Page 2

Digo · 06-17-2008, 10:58 AM

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This tool is amazing for exposing the fuckups in your raid.

tad10 · 06-17-2008, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean

Protip: Stock up on Hard Liquor, you'll need it.

I think of this as more of a protip for life in general not just MMO raiding.

Zerai · 06-17-2008, 11:10 AM

It's easier to lead a raid drunk rather than stoned. Just FYI.

Also, yeah, it's important to let people know when they fuck up, but there is a line you have to be aware of. But that's basically just dealing with people. Ream them out for the right fuckups. Not for a minor CC shit on a trash pull.

And divvying up responsibilities makes everything smoother. If you're not a healer, you shouldn't be giving healing instructions. Let them sort themselves out. Micromanaging can drive people insane. And if they can't function without micromanaging, they probably suck.

Horse · 06-17-2008, 11:17 AM

For ZA, head to the right. See how well you do against the multiple packs and pace yourself with zero or little downtime. You should be able to either kill the first boss and make the timer or else know that next time consumables or a little bit of gear or diff group makeup might make the difference.

Everything else is going to be trial and error.

bear is straightforward multimob pulls with splitting mobs
dragonhawk area has scouts that summon more mobs
eagle is a mini suppression climb where you need to pace your movement up based on the spawns, though this is cheesable
lynx trash is tedious unless you know where and how to run, nothing special about it.

Outside of that, there has to be a level where the people attending the raid want to win: consumables, playing well, etc. ZA is nothing difficult if you've done larger raids unless you're going for the timed win and are not optimally geared.

Just expect that you may wipe once or twice while you're learning and nobody should be teary eyed, hating it and wanting to quit. There aren't really pull guides to it outside of those how-to cheese and win the timed event videos.

Draegan · 06-17-2008, 11:33 AM

I think the only way I got through Garr back in the day was incredibly drunk.

You don't need 39 friends to make MC fun, just your good friend John Daniels.

TheYanger · 06-17-2008, 11:58 AM

If you're just trying to make people feel more at ease by not screwing up, doing Dragonhawk last is a surefire plan (Let's face it, until you've done the trash and him even good guilds can fail there), otherwise the trash is not difficult to figure out in the slightest. The reason you don't see strat threads for trash is because almost all trash in the game is trivial to figure out how to deal with - I think there used to be a thread in SSC about it and even then it cmae up well after the boss stuff did on EJ.

If people are going to get discouraged by wiping and learning, then they're freely letting you know who you need to look to replace.

Arakkis · 06-17-2008, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kreugen

Ditch the captain, you're gonna need Sailor Jerry. (92 proof and better taste)

Read up on the doctrine of negative reinforcement. People work harder when you tell them they suck shit.

Learn to use the various detailed reporting tools to expose who is fucking up.

Eh, I guess it depends on what kind of guild you want. I was in the same guild as Yanger there and they do pretty damn good without telling people they suck shit. If you want to be bleeding edge, then yeah, you have to whip the ponies, but it sounds like you have a core group of friends that will not take kindly to you telling them they are a fucking retard every wipe when they can walk next door and kick you in the balls.

Sean · 06-17-2008, 12:43 PM

If you don't tell your friends that they fucked up, you're not really their friend.

The Ancient · 06-17-2008, 12:47 PM

Calling out the bad players has been a positive experience in every guild I've ever been in. Most of the time they are either they are the type of player who is able to improve or they are the type of player who pitches a fit and alt-f4s when any negative feedback comes their way. Either way the problem is gone.

Etoille · 06-17-2008, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draegan

I think the only way I got through Garr back in the day was incredibly drunk.

You don't need 39 friends to make MC fun, just your good friend John Daniels.

drink every time a rogue pulled aggro.

drink every time someone didnt group up on surgers.

drink everytime it was a confuse dog.

drink every time a mage pulled aggro.

drink every time a hunter's pet pulled an additional mob/pack.

....i dont think i was sober for at least half of my time in MC. the trash made me want to kill bunnies.

personally i never minded being singled out in raids and thoroughly enjoyed other people being singled out. if youre being a fucktard and wiping the raid over and over yes your ass needs to get yelled at. one persons feelings is not > or = 39 other peoples time and energy and morale. and if youre the type whose feelings get hurt when someone tells you hey look asshole get it together then well maybe team play aint for you.

Athryn · 06-17-2008, 12:58 PM

If you want to lead a raid you're going to end up being the "bad cop" so make sure you have a friendly "good cop" officer around. Also make sure everyone has the same mindset, if some people think progressing at 1 boss a month is good and some think anythign less than 1 per night is bad then you'll have problems.

Agraza · 06-17-2008, 12:59 PM

I know a few people capable of fixing players without humiliating or insulting them, but it is a rare talent/personality that makes that possible. I'm not one of them. I curse at people for all the little shit. It's always the little shit. You can't really work up a tirade over someone accidentally pulling ____, but there is plenty of ammo to use when they're consistently out of position.

I agree that you need to address bad players, and be quick on the draw. Something needs to be done, whether you have the tools and oppurtunity to advise them or you need to simply call them out publicly.

Accountability is a high priority, and everyone needs to be held to the same standard if you want to progress. That means even when one of your raiders is being insulted he should be trying to provide the pertinent info. If they can't take the heat you won't get far. Commentary on why the raid wiped should not be sidetracked into "well that isn't a nice thing to say". If anyone takes their ball and goes home they may as well not come back.

Zarcath · 06-17-2008, 01:07 PM

Part of being a guild leader is knowing who's worth the effort and who should take a hike. You have to weigh their benefits against their faults and take into consideration any political ties they have in-guild.

There's a difference between Guild Leader and Raid Leader. It's much easier to be a raid leader.

Koivu · 06-17-2008, 01:15 PM

Whatever you do, be consistent. Don't crucify others for minor mistakes, and let others get away with murder without so much of slap on the wrist. No exceptions, and that also means guild leader's inept girlfriend who should be banned from raiding. /minor rant off.

Mageling · 06-17-2008, 01:21 PM

I agree that people can be singled out, but I also think that a new guild full of people who really haven't played much together jumping straight into something which can be frustrating can be a bad thing. I don't want to just be a nazi and call people on every little mistake, but I also don't want to be the guy who just doesn't give a fuck and lets people do whatever the hell they want.

06-17-2008, 10:58 AM	#16 (permalink)
Digo Ad Hoc Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: CA Posts: 1,215 -1 Internets	Wow Web Stats This tool is amazing for exposing the fuckups in your raid. __________________ casual

06-17-2008, 11:33 AM	#20 (permalink)
Draegan ҉̵̞̟̠̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠͇̊̋̌̍̎ ̏ Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 6,640 -19 Internets	I think the only way I got through Garr back in the day was incredibly drunk. You don't need 39 friends to make MC fun, just your good friend John Daniels. __________________

06-17-2008, 12:43 PM	#23 (permalink)
Sean <Team Ice> Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Washington Posts: 5,993	If you don't tell your friends that they fucked up, you're not really their friend. __________________

06-17-2008, 01:07 PM	#28 (permalink)
Zarcath is a little tea pot. Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Carlsbad CA Posts: 6,465 +75 Internets	Part of being a guild leader is knowing who's worth the effort and who should take a hike. You have to weigh their benefits against their faults and take into consideration any political ties they have in-guild. There's a difference between Guild Leader and Raid Leader. It's much easier to be a raid leader. __________________

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06-17-2008, 11:10 AM	#18 (permalink)
Zerai ~ Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: An Igloo Posts: 3,872 +6 Internets	It's easier to lead a raid drunk rather than stoned. Just FYI. Also, yeah, it's important to let people know when they fuck up, but there is a line you have to be aware of. But that's basically just dealing with people. Ream them out for the right fuckups. Not for a minor CC shit on a trash pull. And divvying up responsibilities makes everything smoother. If you're not a healer, you shouldn't be giving healing instructions. Let them sort themselves out. Micromanaging can drive people insane. And if they can't function without micromanaging, they probably suck.

06-17-2008, 11:17 AM	#19 (permalink)
Horse Registered User Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,970 -51 Internets	For ZA, head to the right. See how well you do against the multiple packs and pace yourself with zero or little downtime. You should be able to either kill the first boss and make the timer or else know that next time consumables or a little bit of gear or diff group makeup might make the difference. Everything else is going to be trial and error. bear is straightforward multimob pulls with splitting mobs dragonhawk area has scouts that summon more mobs eagle is a mini suppression climb where you need to pace your movement up based on the spawns, though this is cheesable lynx trash is tedious unless you know where and how to run, nothing special about it. Outside of that, there has to be a level where the people attending the raid want to win: consumables, playing well, etc. ZA is nothing difficult if you've done larger raids unless you're going for the timed win and are not optimally geared. Just expect that you may wipe once or twice while you're learning and nobody should be teary eyed, hating it and wanting to quit. There aren't really pull guides to it outside of those how-to cheese and win the timed event videos.

06-17-2008, 11:58 AM	#21 (permalink)
TheYanger Old School Monk Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 638 +14 Internets	If you're just trying to make people feel more at ease by not screwing up, doing Dragonhawk last is a surefire plan (Let's face it, until you've done the trash and him even good guilds can fail there), otherwise the trash is not difficult to figure out in the slightest. The reason you don't see strat threads for trash is because almost all trash in the game is trivial to figure out how to deal with - I think there used to be a thread in SSC about it and even then it cmae up well after the boss stuff did on EJ. If people are going to get discouraged by wiping and learning, then they're freely letting you know who you need to look to replace.

06-17-2008, 12:58 PM	#26 (permalink)
Athryn Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 80 -1 Internets	If you want to lead a raid you're going to end up being the "bad cop" so make sure you have a friendly "good cop" officer around. Also make sure everyone has the same mindset, if some people think progressing at 1 boss a month is good and some think anythign less than 1 per night is bad then you'll have problems.

06-17-2008, 12:59 PM	#27 (permalink)
Agraza Issh good, no? Join Date: May 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 2,043	I know a few people capable of fixing players without humiliating or insulting them, but it is a rare talent/personality that makes that possible. I'm not one of them. I curse at people for all the little shit. It's always the little shit. You can't really work up a tirade over someone accidentally pulling ____, but there is plenty of ammo to use when they're consistently out of position. I agree that you need to address bad players, and be quick on the draw. Something needs to be done, whether you have the tools and oppurtunity to advise them or you need to simply call them out publicly. Accountability is a high priority, and everyone needs to be held to the same standard if you want to progress. That means even when one of your raiders is being insulted he should be trying to provide the pertinent info. If they can't take the heat you won't get far. Commentary on why the raid wiped should not be sidetracked into "well that isn't a nice thing to say". If anyone takes their ball and goes home they may as well not come back.

06-17-2008, 01:15 PM	#29 (permalink)
Koivu Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 179 +0 Internets	Whatever you do, be consistent. Don't crucify others for minor mistakes, and let others get away with murder without so much of slap on the wrist. No exceptions, and that also means guild leader's inept girlfriend who should be banned from raiding. /minor rant off.

06-17-2008, 01:21 PM	#30 (permalink)
Mageling wtf m8? Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 624 -5 Internets	I agree that people can be singled out, but I also think that a new guild full of people who really haven't played much together jumping straight into something which can be frustrating can be a bad thing. I don't want to just be a nazi and call people on every little mistake, but I also don't want to be the guy who just doesn't give a fuck and lets people do whatever the hell they want.