Talent builder for WotLK alpha

[Goofy]

Its not that we have a hardon for combat daggers or assasination daggers or whatever.

The point is

1) backstab/mutilate type ability has always been a definition of being a rogue (sneaky/stealthy/backstabby)

2) Whether its boring or not is subjective. But a skill that requires you to constantly be in 1 position to do damage compared to a skill where you can just be anywhere to use SHOULD NOT HAVE THE SAME DAMAGE OUTPUT.

3) Right now going daggers is so stupid. If subtle line had sword enhancing talents every shadowstep rogue would be using swords. ITS STUPID.

Fine, make it mutilate or backstab or add another skill that requires back stabbing we don't care. We just want stabbing from the back to be viable build again.

Idea: add a skill that is also daggers exclusive that requires you to be on the sides of a mob to use so that rogues have to move to sides of mob as well. And make it a skill you would want to use once the refresh is up and you are not using your primary damage skill (like backstab). Call it ccccombo breaker for all i care.

[Vardisk]

Originally Posted by Goofy

We just want stabbing from the back to be viable build again.

Who is this we you speak of? I've used swords since day 1 of WoW's release, I'd hate to be pigeonholed into using daggers. Hell, I don't think I've ever even used daggers outside of goofing around for a couple of hours in almost 4 years of WoW.

[Cad]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

With it being so trivial now to get epic gear while solo/duo I'd have thought you'd be jerking off into a tin cup given how much you fucking whined about being dependent on other people for gear.

Anyways...

Given the rogue leaks, feral dps druids are still going to be shit in comparison. On top of that it's simply a matter of opportunity cost. If you really want to dps, go boomkin as that tree is getting crazy shit plus you don't have to shift forms to root.

It is pretty easy to get epic gear, but I'm not that fond of arenas and don't have time to raid (never did, really) so what am I going to do with an epic-geared resto druid that doesn't raid? I could solo-heal all the heroics easily with my mixed blues/pvp gear before I quit (Sept 07'ish).

It's not so much that I want to dps, I just really feel like a liability to 5-mans or raids if I'm not tanking on my druid - I'd like to have non-laughable dps if I'm not tanking. It's borderline overpowered to have druids also have instance cc, because a lot of our utility is still there - bear when needed, lotp, combat rez, innervate (which I could usually do even while tanking - I used to rez my retarded healers that managed to stand in the fire nova while tanking, and could innervate them without taking a hit out of bear in heroic SP) etc etc..

The adrenaline rush + 15% crit on shred is pretty retarded.. shred will only cost 21 energy with the adrenaline rush thing on, and with a 55-60% crit rate on it, it should be fucking sick with tigers fury giving 60 energy every time too. From full energy with TF you can hit shred 12 straight times when you pop it, 12 shreds in 12 seconds. Thats pretty crazy burst.

[Burkex]

If they made sinister strike cost like 75 energy, daggers would become a lot more attractive and people would bitch less for rogue nerfs.

[Goofy]

Originally Posted by Vardisk

Who is this we you speak of? I've used swords since day 1 of WoW's release, I'd hate to be pigeonholed into using daggers. Hell, I don't think I've ever even used daggers outside of goofing around for a couple of hours in almost 4 years of WoW.

And the whole pigeonhole into swords now is wha?

Well use swords then. I'm not asking for the sword skill to be removed from rogues.

But at this juncture when 1 spec is superior in every way to another it needs tweaking. And thats what i want to see brought back on the table for rogues. I'm not asking for swords to be nerfed or removed. I'm asking for dagger spec to be viable again. If indeed i need to be in certain position to do my damage, there needs to be either some utility attached to it or it should top another build that opted for ezier damage dealing to make up for the downside.

If not remove backstab, add in stab and make it the same skill as SS with a diff name.

Right now a skill that has been the iconic staple of the rogue class (not only in WOW) isn't even found on most hotbars of rogues playing. That needs some looking into.

[Deathwing]

People are bitching for rogue nerfs?

[bonanno]

Originally Posted by Deathwing

People are bitching for rogue nerfs?

Certainly not asking for rogue buffs.

[Makata]

Originally Posted by Lost Ranger

Why go back to a horrible boring spec when you get great dps NOW with a spec that doesn't make you want to cut yourself while raiding just to keep it interesting.

It was never boring to me. Combo points don't somehow make it more fun. At best you can cite having to stay at the back a pain and thus the opposite of fun but it was just one more nuance that separated the good from the bad. Want to be lazy and not fight for position? Spec ss and do less damage. No reason at all a spec that requires more attentiveness shouldn't deal more damage to make up for it when its nothing but disadvantages.

Originally Posted by Kaxmax

No, it WAS the definitive dagger ability .. It was never the definitive rogue ability.

Lol wut? And yes, backstab is, was, and will always be the definition of the rogue theme across any and all rpg style games. WoW rogues are far closer to a brigand/swashbuckler type of figure. Rogues focus on stealth, gutting you in 1 blow and then disappearing back into the night.

Originally Posted by Vardisk

I'd hate to be pigeonholed into using daggers.

And I hate being pigeonholed into sinister strike. Name one .. that's right ONE advantage (at 70, excluding tentative ambush buffs in wotlk) of backstab right now. Not mutilate .. fuck giving up combat. Backstab. Name an advantage. Worse CP generation, equal combat potency potential, lower dps, fewer overall MH attacks, thus fewer poison applications and a double windfury penalty (fewer attacks and those attacks hit for less).

NAME ONE ADVANTAGE. There is the problem.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Well, so long as rogues main use is damage, it's going to be pretty close to impossible to balance. there was a brief period where daggers and swords were nearly the same damage but the insane scaling of white damage just makes daggers infeasible for a long time to come.

Honestly the only way I can see them making the two 'balanced' against eachother is adding some deep Assassination talents that add huge rogue utility to the raid. Like a dagger only poison that increases all DoT damage to a mob by 20% and improved-improved kidney shot that ignores mob immunity with a 1 minute hidden cooldown or something.

Whatever, you get the idea. The rogue version of the hunter survival tree I suppose. Less personal damage. Though good luck getting them to spec it. Suggesting a pure dps class gimp their dps to help out the raid is the second hardest feat to accomplish in WoW. The first of course being to not want to drink heavily after reading Makata's posts.

[Xequecal]

What is it about daggers that would be so overpowered by them putting in some slower daggers to boost backstab?

[Zehn - Vhex]

Ambush and pvp.

[Mist]

Originally Posted by Xequecal

What is it about daggers that would be so overpowered by them putting in some slower daggers to boost backstab?

This would have no significant effect. Normalization is 1.7 speed and most of your damage comes from AP when raid buffed, not the weapon. Backstab being bad is overall good for rogues anyway, since no one wants to hit one button every 6 seconds.

[Deathwing]

Yeah, ask enhancement shamans and retribution paladins how exciting raid combat is for them.

Zhen, you can always read his internets. They always cheer me up after reading a makata post. Does makata have the most negative internets?

EDIT: You're right, it is Zehn!

[Kaxmax]

At best you can cite having to stay at the back a pain and thus the opposite of fun but it was just one more nuance that separated the good from the bad. Want to be lazy and not fight for position? Spec ss and do less damage. No reason at all a spec that requires more attentiveness shouldn't deal more damage to make up for it when its nothing but disadvantages.

How many combat rogues do you see attacking from the front in raids?

Originally Posted by Makata

Lol wut? And yes, backstab is, was, and will always be the definition of the rogue theme across any and all rpg style games. WoW rogues are far closer to a brigand/swashbuckler type of figure. Rogues focus on stealth, gutting you in 1 blow and then disappearing back into the night.

You just said it yourself, the WoW rogue is not a traditional rogue, it makes no fucking difference what other games do. At no point in the game's life has the rogue been a dagger focused class. Swords/Fists/Maces have always been completely viable builds in both PVP & PVE (and stronger for leveling up), and Swords have arguably been the strongest raid build for the games entire lifespan.

[Velk]

Originally Posted by Nehrak

More seriously, what's the 411 on Metamorphosis' abilities? Immolation (the Aura) was apparently one, but what about the rest? I get the idea of how it works, but there hasn't been a peep about what it does, or if they use a retarded model or not.

Demon form also gets :

Charge *
Shadow Cleave ( first rank is weapon damage + 512 to 3 targets )
Shadow Bolt
Shadow Bolt Volley ( no target limit )

* The in-combat mob version, not the warrior one