Talent builder for WotLK alpha

[dak]

None of that save for maybe evasion (don't know as I've never done RoS so don't know how it's used) is "utility." If the rogue never showed up, his cheat death and cloak of shadows wouldn't be missed by anyone as they're not USEFUL to anyone else, the fucking definition of utility. Fel Armor is not utility; healthstones are. Avenger's Shield is not utility; blessings are. Making a case that rogues have personal survivability is one thing--but it is completely tangential to the topic of utility. Plus, what raiding rogue is not 19/42? We don't raid with cheat death unless we want to tie the prot pally on the meters.

Blind is a 3 minute ability that encompasses the 2nd worst pve CC their is (cyclone barely taking the lead due to it being the only spammable cc with a dr)

I like how someone who hasn't even cleared BT is spouting off about the utility of Cheat death and CLoS in a raid setting.

Cheat death would be GREATLY missed by everyone in a Kil'Jaedan raid seeing how nobody else is going to be eating darkness during phase 3 and the raid would not continue without the ability.

Cloak of Shadows on a rogue pretty much trivializes an encapsulate and if you had all...say dps warriors/enh shaman instead of rogues encapsulate would be MUCH more dangerous.

Oh, really? Plus, sinister has roughly a 4 second effective cooldown as do shred and mangle.

Good thing the majority of their damage comes from white attacks.

So yeah, stfu. You don't know what you are talking about, just stop.

[Antoine]

Originally Posted by Makata

None of that save for maybe evasion (don't know as I've never done RoS so don't know how it's used) is "utility." If the rogue never showed up, his cheat death and cloak of shadows wouldn't be missed by anyone as they're not USEFUL to anyone else, the fucking definition of utility. Fel Armor is not utility; healthstones are. Avenger's Shield is not utility; blessings are. Making a case that rogues have personal survivability is one thing--but it is completely tangential to the topic of utility. Plus, what raiding rogue is not 19/42? We don't raid with cheat death unless we want to tie the prot pally on the meters.

If you actually went to sunwell you'd learn that cloak/iceblock/bubble are utility in that if you use them on certain abilities (encapsulate, ib/ds are useful on kj when he spawns adds) because it makes the entire raid take less damage

[yknits]

Originally Posted by Makata

Oh, really? Plus, sinister has roughly a 4 second effective cooldown as do shred and mangle. Ret pallies wait 6 seconds between CS's and 3.x between autos.

... You do realize that druids, rogues, warriors, hunters, paladins all get white damage? There is no crossover. Ever seen a 9 second shadowbolt Mr. PvP? With interupts and spell knockback we have much bigger sway's of dps.

[nu_11]

Originally Posted by Burkex

I agree 100% with you. Pure DMG dealers only have 1 role whereas a warrior has 2. A warrior should never out dps a mage or any pure DPS class imo. it's just sad that they do. PRE-TBC fury warr was the best DPS which was even more fucked up. It really is World of Melecraft tho. Mele wep scaling is just so much better than any caster loot, added to the fact that mele weps are some of the best items in the game. In addition shammy buffs (Windfury especially) just add so much DPS to mele.

Warriors deserve their DPS. If all a warrior could do was tank, then there'd only be a need for one, main tanking duties.

As I see it, warriors have less survivablity than rogues in raids, considering no spell immunity, evasion, etc. They're pure melee dps in plate. Plate, however, being pretty useless in raids considering things hitting so hard.

[Mythas]

Yeah like rogues mages warlocks and hunters who can just switch specs and do something else other than dps. Give me a fucking break. Wow you have a class that is the premier boss tank in the game and you want to also be top 4 dps shut the fuck up.

Oh p.s if you are getting hit by boss mobs as dps...you are doing it wrong.

[Wodin]

Originally Posted by dak

I like how someone who hasn't even cleared BT is spouting off about the utility of Cheat death and CLoS in a raid setting.

Cheat death would be GREATLY missed by everyone in a Kil'Jaedan raid seeing how nobody else is going to be eating darkness during phase 3 and the raid would not continue without the ability.

What the fuck are you talking about? The SK "Subtlety" rogue was tri-spec hemo to take advantage of Kil'jaeden's lower armor, not Cheat Death.

You don't know what you are talking about, just stop.

I'd recommend you do the same. CloS is definitely utility in a lot of scenarios (Encapsulate, Fire Bloom, Arcane Instability, and Flame-Touched/Dark-Touched in Sunwell alone) , so Makata is being a retard there, but it's a complete fucking myth that Cheat Death has ever been anything other than a pvp tool. If you manage to somehow get caught in Darkness, you're a fucking retard anyways.

Rogues are an excellent DPS class and in a good place - 1-2 is always worthwhile. They are not, however, in the place where Shaman or Warlock are where you'd bring as many as you could.

[dak]

What the fuck are you talking about.

What the fuck are YOU talking about.

[Wodin]

Originally Posted by dak

What the fuck are YOU talking about.

Here's what Zkygge, the rogue who was hemo spec on SK's Kil'jaeden kill, had to say about his spec:

We did not help on orb killing - and as I said it was not really to boost dps, I know I could've saved my money speccing hemo, and next time I most certainly will. I had some slight altered version of the 11/27/23, since he is a caster after all. Not sure if there is any reason to justify a shit hemo spec, but at the time being, where we had only seen the last 15% of the fight 1 time, it seemed as a thing we wanted to try - but the next time we got it that low we just nailed him. So I don't even want to try and justify me speccing hemo, because it was not needed after all. But well, at the time being it seemed like a decent idea, because of a lot of the stuff we dicussed about the fight... and then we killed him, just a few hours after (Was combat for pretty much 90% of the time). Sorry there is no little secret to it - and I wouldn't do it again.

Source: http://elitistjerks.com/764033-post3178.html

[LadyVex]

Originally Posted by Burkex

Dragonfang Blade - Thottbot: World of Warcraft

Believe this was parsed as being a slight downgrade to Perdition's unless you were seal fate, and then it was the smallest of increases - not enough to justify taking it, unless it dropped before Perdition's for you.

I had it as a hunter purely for the agility on it; out of the ones that dropped hunters got them, with the exception of one which went to a new recruit rogue who hadn't gotten Perd's.

BWL was a sword rogue's playground!

[TheYanger]

If they would drop for you - which is the whole point about how it's double edged.
For comparison, my guild was clearing BWL about as early as anyone was discounting the ultra-high end, and we didn't see a CTS until we were into Naxx. Unless my memory is wrong, I was rocking Perdition's and Felstriker until looting the 'overpowered' servo arm (Which was anything but, and was far from the best weapon in the zone whoever said that, get your facts straight please).

Obviously weapon drops dramatically help melee, but on the flipside the rest of the gear means relatively little.

[Zerai]

Originally Posted by Mythas

Yeah like rogues mages warlocks and hunters who can just switch specs and do something else other than dps. Give me a fucking break. Wow you have a class that is the premier boss tank in the game and you want to also be top 4 dps shut the fuck up.

Oh p.s if you are getting hit by boss mobs as dps...you are doing it wrong.

If warrior's couldn't dps well...you'd never see any. Except for the one MT in the raid. Having almost 0 utility and 0 survivability, if their dps wasn't top notch, it'd be more of a liability to bring them.

[Grizzlebeard]

Originally Posted by Zerai

If warrior's couldn't dps well...you'd never see any. Except for the one MT in the raid. Having almost 0 utility and 0 survivability, if their dps wasn't top notch, it'd be more of a liability to bring them.

Using that logic then mages should be given the ability to tank better than warriors.

[Deathwing]

Because mages provide less utility than battle shout and maybe blood frenzy?

Ok, they can be the DS and tclap bitch too. Still not much and that is clear in that no one brings more than one.

[Lucifar]

DPS warriors bring a comparatively low level of utility - a group only buff that only helps melee.

They generally also take more damage than any other class.

They need the DPS they are doing to justify their palce in a mix/max raid.

--
If you're seriously annoyed that warriors also have the ability to spec to a premier Tank role, then it's time for you to let that go, or at least take your tears somewhere else.

Warrior's can be great damage dealers _or_ tanks. Deal with it. It's been that way for a long time now. If that's a role you're jelous of, then roll one.

If I played a mage as my main, I know that I would want choice as well. Rolling the mage I would expect that choice to come from their three schools of magic, in many area's of the game that is currently true. If it's not the case with raiding (only one spec is viable), then bitch and feedback about getting that fixed. Warriors rolled a class with 2 damage and 1 tanking tree, you know you chose to roll a class with 3 damage tree's, so don't act like the issue of warriors being able to spec to two quite different roles was snuck up on you. Forget trying to be petty and getting other classes hacked down to only one good option. As much as you might think it's the case, Blizzard isn't going to pay much attention to your negative whinging about other classes.

[Grizzlebeard]

So you think it's perfectly acceptable to be number 1 tank for the majority of content and still be able to out dps a pure dps class? Come the fuck off it.