Talent builder for WotLK alpha

[Kobalt]

PoP I think?

[GrobbeeTrull2.0]

Didn't mean you couldn't have more than one raid though! Haha.

[Agraza]

Didn't the raid encounters just banish you from the zone if you weren't in the raid that started the fight? Post=72 Anyway. Or was that just shit like Rallos in PoWar? I know he booted extraneous people, but it was mostly because the fight happened so close to the zone in you "could" zerg him if he didn't.

[mek]

Originally Posted by kaid

threat generation seems to lag pretty seriously behind DPS these days. Thats one main reason the off spec warriors pretty much cannot tank in raids there is just no way for them to generate the threat needed to hold agro and likely even with gear change would be hard pressed to take the beating even if you could hold the agro.

This is pretty null and void in WotLK, if you've been reading notes. The reason this was a problem is prot is the only spec with significantly scaling threat, via shield slam. In WotLK, virtually every threat-heavy ability scales with AP as well, so it should be less of an issue. Arms and Fury each have their own gimmick, as well, fury can 2h+shield and arms has some refresh CD talent, I forget what exactly. Obviously all of this is meant to ease 5man tanking to all specs of warrior.

Oh, and shamans and warlocks obviously have way too much raid synergy. That discussion is raging well enough over on EJ.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Mythas:

You may have trouble reading so I'll try to use smaller words. I do realize the job system is not in WoW. Hence why I said "Ideal MMO." IE: one in the future.

I know, hard concept.

Amp magic is awesome because it's one of the few healing synergy abilities in the game. But I also said that adding a stacking buff to ignite that increases raid dps would help offset the dps defe...nevermind, you're too goddamn dense to understand these basic principles. I'll move on.

Anyways...

In early EQ, up through Velious or so, taking too many people was more a deteriment then a bonus really. Hence the wave strategies. Around Luclin/PoP though server/internet hardware caught up to the point where it would just lag the zone out and work out to your benefit. Throw 200 people at most bosses = win.

Then when they started limiting raids, yeah, it was pretty much "2 warriors, 6-8 clerics and 40 wizards"

Makata:

Cloak of Shadows saving a healer between 10 and 20 GCD's and 1~4k mana seems pretty fucking significant raid utility to me. Claiming that molten armor is anywhere near the same level of functionality as claoking off burn or encapsulate is just...I mean...ow, just ow. My brain hurts from trying to comprehend how someone can make that comparison.

Cloak is fucking amazing. Pure and simple. Roughly 8 TBC fights are based off of rogues kicking as well for that matter, possibly more.

And well if you thought there were tons of warriors in EQ you're fucking smoking some high quality shit. Tons of clerics I'll give you that though. I should know, I botted 7 of them because the actual owners of the accounts no longer wanted to play them because they were so fucking boring.

Ah well...

[Wodin]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

Roughly 8 TBC fights are based off of rogues kicking as well for that matter, possibly more.

Makata's a retard, but I'm going to call you on this one. The ones I can think of where another class cannot be substituted are:

Kael'thas, Reliquary of Souls, Illidari Council, Caribdis in the Karathress fight, and arguably Solarian in Tempest Keep. Everything else you don't need Kick to do.

[Xequecal]

Originally Posted by Wodin

Makata's a retard, but I'm going to call you on this one. The ones I can think of where another class cannot be substituted are:

Kael'thas, Reliquary of Souls, Illidari Council, Caribdis in the Karathress fight, and arguably Solarian in Tempest Keep. Everything else you don't need Kick to do.

Uh, I'm pretty sure the Warrior tank can shield bash Kael's Pyroblast just fine. It might be little bit harder without his Fireballs being constantly interrupted, but not impossible. Warrior tank can also shield bash Caribdis' heals and Lady Malande's Circle of Healing, it has a 20 second cooldown. RoS is the only fight in the game I can think of where you actually NEED Kick/Pummel. You could also theoretically use a feral druid with the PvP gloves as well.

[James]

Can? Sure. Maybe. Warrior GCD is 1.5 seconds, rogue GCD is 1.0 seconds. Any spell cast 2.0 seconds and faster is likely enough to be GCD fucked by a Warrior, and not exactly reliable. Rogues generally have a faster reaction time on it, and are thus preferable.

[Xequecal]

Originally Posted by James

Can? Sure. Maybe. Warrior GCD is 1.5 seconds, rogue GCD is 1.0 seconds. Any spell cast 2.0 seconds and faster is likely enough to be GCD fucked by a Warrior, and not exactly reliable. Rogues generally have a faster reaction time on it, and are thus preferable.

Kael's Pyroblast is obviously extremely easy to catch, and if you're tanking Malande or Caribidis you can mostly just autoattack because you're either getting a 5+ minute lead or your mob is never going to get attacked at all.

[James]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

In early EQ, up through Velious or so, taking too many people was more a deteriment then a bonus really. Hence the wave strategies. Around Luclin/PoP though server/internet hardware caught up to the point where it would just lag the zone out and work out to your benefit. Throw 200 people at most bosses = win.

Then when they started limiting raids, yeah, it was pretty much "2 warriors, 6-8 clerics and 40 wizards"

The wave strategies existed solely for early Vox/Nagafen when the HP regen between attempts was effectively nil (like player HP regen, 3 per 5 seconds or some shit). So you'd go in, do 20% damage, res back up, do 20% more, etc, etc, until they died. They patched that before Fear's release though, so not even Cazic Thule had a wave strategy that I can recall.

It was indeed late Velious that /serverfilter was added that reliably allowed more than 40 people to raid at a time.

[Presarc]

HE SAID 8 ITS NOT 8 ITS LESS WHO CARES STFU

[Makata]

I had a nice huge reply going but there's really no point when it's arguing semantics. If you want to call letting the healers cast fewer spells "utility," you go right ahead. If I'm the person who's being helped by utility, I want things that IMPROVE what I do. 3% more crit, 10% more AP, etc. By your definition of a couple cooldowns, you being there allows that healer to sit and twiddle his thumbs for half a minute because he doesn't have to spend that time healing you. Oh, what great fun.

Cloak is fucking amazing. Pure and simple. Roughly 8 TBC fights are based off of rogues kicking as well for that matter, possibly more.

Never said it wasn't. Also, kick is not utility; it's an ability. Or is fireball a utility too? How about Steady Shot?

[Presarc]

Originally Posted by Makata

I had a nice huge reply going but there's really no point when it's arguing semantics. If you want to call letting the healers cast fewer spells "utility," you go right ahead. If I'm the person who's being helped by utility, I want things that IMPROVE what I do. 3% more crit, 10% more AP, etc. By your definition of a couple cooldowns, you being there allows that healer to sit and twiddle his thumbs for half a minute because he doesn't have to spend that time healing you. Oh, what great fun.

Never said it wasn't. Also, kick is not utility; it's an ability. Or is fireball a utility too? How about Steady Shot?

Wow, let's take this one from the top.

If you want to call letting the healers cast fewer spells "utility," you go right ahead.

You yourself said in an earlier post that utility is helping other people in the raid. Healers having to cast fewer spells ON YOU is helping other people in the raid.

By your definition of a couple cooldowns, you being there allows that healer to sit and twiddle his thumbs for half a minute because he doesn't have to spend that time healing you.

So let me get this straight, your definition of "utility" is you helping yourself do more damage? I guess you could call any ability in the game utility then, since the mob is dying that much faster, or you're receiving that much more healing!

Never said it wasn't. Also, kick is not utility; it's an ability. Or is fireball a utility too? How about Steady Shot?

This one just takes the cake. I can think of a few things that offer nothing but utility, but are also (I think you saw this one coming!) abilities!! Curse of Shadows, Curse of Elements, Battle Shout, Commanding Shout, do I need to go on? Or are you implying that only things like Unleashed Rage can TRULY count as being utility since you don't have to do shit to keep it active.

God you're a fucking retard.

[nu_11]

Originally Posted by Makata

...

Never said it wasn't. Also, kick is not utility; it's an ability. Or is fireball a utility too? How about Steady Shot?

You know you just shot yourself in the foot?

[mek]

Makata is retarded. News at 11.