Talent builder for WotLK alpha

[The Ancient]

15 Shamans = permanent bloodlust.

[Mythas]

Korioni we are talking about actual raids and not karazhan. If you as a mage are beating Locks / Rogues / Hunters / wars at t6 and beyond content every player that plays those classes suck. Also, it could be that your raid leader is an absolute moron who can't figure out how to make groups.

Antione has linked multiple top 10 wws compilations that show all those classes eclipsing mages in t6+ content. So if you are in t6 content you are playing with some bad players.

Zhen i realize you have a raging fucking hard on for FFXI's job system. Guess what there is no fucking job system in wow, and odds are there never fucking will be. Stop acting like complaints aren't valid because you want the god damn job system to be implemented. Shit isn't balanced in wow with or without the job system. So yes, classes that only have access to ONE role should be superior at that role. Is it dated from old mmo's sure maybe. Tanks were tanks, dps was dps and healers were healers. Que wow where everyone except dps classes can do just about two roles if not 3.

Yes, amplify magic is decent at best. With the spirit changes and increased mana regen healers im sure could really give a fuck all about 200 extra healing *yes, i know thats not the correct number* they are down ranking anyway. So no, again, amplify magic isn't ZOMG mages are balanced either.

[Deathwing]

Originally Posted by Mythas

Zhen i realize you have a raging fucking hard on for FFXI's job system. Guess what there is no fucking job system in wow, and odds are there never fucking will be. Stop acting like complaints aren't valid because you want the god damn job system to be implemented. Shit isn't balanced in wow with or without the job system. So yes, classes that only have access to ONE role should be superior at that role. Is it dated from old mmo's sure maybe. Tanks were tanks, dps was dps and healers were healers. Que wow where everyone except dps classes can do just about two roles if not 3.

Zhen put it pretty clearly, so I don't know how this is even going to help much. That dps warrior or elemental shaman or whoever you're getting uppity about challenging(or surpassing) your dps...wtf else are they doing when they are dps spec?

Blizzard tries(and I think mostly succeeds) to balance around current spec and utility. Meaning, does a moonkins dps + utility(brez, innervate, 5% spell crit, 3% melee hit, maybe pinch heals?) equal to a mages dps + utility? WWS reports would say no, and it looks like they are getting tuned in WoTLK.

You don't get to add in feral utility to that equation, or tree utility. For one thing, they're never going to offer all that utility at the same time(that's the important part) and with the exception of one class, they will not have the required gear to just change specs(that's the practical part).

So those dps warriors(that's the exception gear wise, being fixed next expac) and boomkins and elemental shamans, they're just that. They're not tanks or healers, or melee windfury bots.

[TheYanger]

The difference is that with ferals they really ARE dps and tank specced at once. No, they can't do it without changing gear, but they can still swap around and do reasonably well midfight which is nice.

[Deathwing]

That's their whole point though, and their dps has been lowered to account for it.

They're slightly inferior tanks and inferior dps, but better dps than a prot warrior, so it's their gimmick.

With the suggested removal of crushings next expac though, I don't know how they will be inferior tanks overall. With the exception of spell-heavy encounters, I would say that makes them much better tanks than warriors and paladins. But we haven't seen the full extent of the blocking changes, it could be getting a major facelift.

[Zerai]

Originally Posted by Mythas

Zhen i realize you have a raging fucking hard on for FFXI's job system. Guess what there is no fucking job system in wow, and odds are there never fucking will be. Stop acting like complaints aren't valid because you want the god damn job system to be implemented. Shit isn't balanced in wow with or without the job system. So yes, classes that only have access to ONE role should be superior at that role. Is it dated from old mmo's sure maybe. Tanks were tanks, dps was dps and healers were healers. Que wow where everyone except dps classes can do just about two roles if not 3.

It's because in other mmos, the game had one facet. You PVE'd or you PVP'd. Stuff like the Zek servers were an abberation, not the norm. Things like DAoC, PVE was on the back burner.

Blizzard fucked up (or didn't, depends on your POV) in that certain classes/talents are completely worthless in pvp. See tanks. You can't tank in WoW PVP. In WoW, PVE is only a part of the content. PVP is a major force within WoW.

So already you have certain classes requiring two or more rolls to be useful in 100% of the game. This is annoying enough in its own right. However, DPS does DPS in PVE and PVP. Your role doesn't change. Sure spec plays a part, but it's not like a warrior. Going from Fire to Frost, you're still a mage, you just cast slightly different spells. Going from Tank to MS warrior is a complete change.

But it also goes to the point Deathwing put pretty well, you are balanced around what you are right now. A fury warrior can throw on a shield and sort of tank, they just blow horribly at it. It's not even funny how much of a difference spec plays these days. Back in naxx, sure you could have a fury warrior OT, but it was really tight, even then. In BWL, np. Fast forward to now? you're pretty fucked. You can't hold dick worth of agro.

So you have to look at what the fury warrior brings to the table vs a mage. And they don't bring much, they die really easy since they take more damage than anyone from everything, so they better damn well do good dps or they'd never be there. They are also melee and as has been said, as much as you ranged casters bitch, melee has to do more damage or have more utility than an equal ranged, or you'd never bring melee. Ranged is a fuckload easier to manage in todays WoW. And has always been. Whether they change that? who knows, but it is now. And thats what matters for right now.

[kaid]

threat generation seems to lag pretty seriously behind DPS these days. Thats one main reason the off spec warriors pretty much cannot tank in raids there is just no way for them to generate the threat needed to hold agro and likely even with gear change would be hard pressed to take the beating even if you could hold the agro.

To hold good agro vs high end DPS'ers pretty much requires a tank specific spec either prot warrior/paladin or feral. Of those feral is nice because when an off tank is not needed a switch of the gear and they can still DPS decently.

I think the druids got nerfed a bit to much right after TBC and it will happen again in WOTLK. The problem is druids excell when everybody is undergeared as gear progresses they drop farther and farther and farther back and by the end of an update cycle feral dps is pretty low compared to what everybody else does.

I am guessing when WOTLK comes out you will see druids tanking the hell out of stuff and doing as good DPS as all the other DPS'ers and will get nerfed yet again before the more gear dependent classes get a chance to fully gear up.

[Presarc]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

In an ideal world, we'd have the job system and these "LOL U CAN TANK AND DPS SO UR DPS SHOULD SUCK LOL" statements can finally fuck off and die once and for all along with the EverQuest mentality that spawned it.

Then again, that might lead to all guilds having access to the ideal raid of 2 protadins, 1 prot warrior and 22 shaman.

Haha fuck that. 2 prot pallies, 1 prot warrior, 7 shaman, 15 warlocks

[Fadaar]

Originally Posted by kaid

threat generation seems to lag pretty seriously behind DPS these days. Thats one main reason the off spec warriors pretty much cannot tank in raids there is just no way for them to generate the threat needed to hold agro and likely even with gear change would be hard pressed to take the beating even if you could hold the agro.

To hold good agro vs high end DPS'ers pretty much requires a tank specific spec either prot warrior/paladin or feral. Of those feral is nice because when an off tank is not needed a switch of the gear and they can still DPS decently.

I think the druids got nerfed a bit to much right after TBC and it will happen again in WOTLK. The problem is druids excell when everybody is undergeared as gear progresses they drop farther and farther and farther back and by the end of an update cycle feral dps is pretty low compared to what everybody else does.

I am guessing when WOTLK comes out you will see druids tanking the hell out of stuff and doing as good DPS as all the other DPS'ers and will get nerfed yet again before the more gear dependent classes get a chance to fully gear up.

Gotta love the nerf first ask questions later policy at Blizzard eh?

How about putting Illumination back at 100%? Please, so I don't have to reroll shaman or warlock for expansion?

[TheCutlery]

Originally Posted by Fadaar

Gotta love the nerf first ask questions later policy at Blizzard eh?

How about putting Illumination back at 100%? Please, so I don't have to reroll shaman or warlock for expansion?

Yeah, I'd say this needs to happen pretty quickly. HL's mana cost is absurd, really the only way you can even come close to sustaining the longevity that other healers have is by using FoL solely, and that's pretty piss poor healing if you ask me.

[Makata]

Originally Posted by dak

I like how someone who hasn't even cleared BT is spouting off about the utility of Cheat death and CLoS in a raid setting.

Utility means it is helping other players. Not requiring as much healing is not utility for fucks sake. And for the last fucking time, no rogue is going on any serious raid 33 deep in subtlety so stop mentioning cheat death. It is a pvp talent through and through.

If you could cast cloak of shadows on someone else in the raid, it would be utility. Mages being able to buff themselves to having 3% more crit and thus killing bosses slightly faster requiring fewer heals overall is as much utility as cloak of shadows making the rogue require fewer heals. You say with a straight face that Molten Armor is utility and I'll say Cloak is. As based off what bullshit you're trying to spew, they both have the same long term effect for the raid.

Originally Posted by Antoine

If you actually went to sunwell you'd learn that cloak/iceblock/bubble are utility in that if you use them on certain abilities (encapsulate, ib/ds are useful on kj when he spawns adds) because it makes the entire raid take less damage

See above.

Originally Posted by TheCutlery

Yes. Remember EQ where no one brought more warriors than was required to tank things?

You mean back when MMO's were actually good? Back when even though the only thing a warrior could do was tank and the only thing a cleric could deal was heal, YET THERE WERE STILL TONS OF THEM? Worked then and it would work now.

[Antoine]

If cloak isn't utility, then I don't know what is. I already pointed out how cloak/ds/ib make felmyst almost trivial.

[Kobalt]

Originally Posted by Makata

You mean back when MMO's were actually good? Back when even though the only thing a warrior could do was tank and the only thing a cleric could deal was heal, YET THERE WERE STILL TONS OF THEM? Worked then and it would work now.

Back when mmo's were good? lols

Sorry to say to you guys that punch walls when you think about paladins doing anything but healing but, the days of useless hybrids is over. Even The Game That Shall Not Be Named that was supposed to be the second coming of vision before fun had healers that did damage.

[Lejina Bloodbath]

Originally Posted by TheCutlery

Yes. Remember EQ where no one brought more warriors than was required to tank things?

Wat?

There wasn't any limit on who could join the raid party in EQ. 12 warriors online, able and willing to raid? They all were in. 50dps was better than none.

[Presarc]

When was it eventually limited to 72? It's 54 now.