AOC - General Discussion II

[Horse]

Originally Posted by Digo

A bounty system would make me more inclined to gank lowbies. People that gank lowbies want notoriety. A bounty system only encourages it. Dreadlords, anyone?

You'd become more notorious for being the one that kills the one killing lowbies.

Ganking lowbies happens more with this, of course. That's a good thing. Limit the notoriety gain so that repeat killing the same one isn't that much, and boost the hell out of the notoriety gain for killing someone notorious.

So yes, the idea is that there'd be the big mean max levels terrorizing the underlings to a point (just like diminishing returns on honor kills worked fine) and now there's actually a reason for someone to stop them.

Can someone just make a game that does it and stop pitching underhand? You can put the ruleset on a special server...





That's thinking of a simple system at some later phase of its life, though. It shouldn't be too hard to implement this sort of system in a closed place like a battleground.

Killing some afk asswipe shouldn't be worth more because you soloed them when they were running into a wall... killing the hunter that's hiding on the cliff picking people off and on a 12-0 killstreak should be.

Take those systems and give notoriety points based on performance in battlegrounds that unlock titles and wow, you have engaging PVP using the same tired system.

[Itzena]

Originally Posted by Horse

You'd become more notorious for being the one that kills the one killing lowbies.

No.

No, you wouldn't.

[Draegan]

If you're "Red" in terms of the game then anyone can kill you consequence free.

[Digo]

Originally Posted by Horse

You'd become more notorious for being the one that kills the one killing lowbies.

Ganking lowbies happens more with this, of course. That's a good thing. Limit the notoriety gain so that repeat killing the same one isn't that much, and boost the hell out of the notoriety gain for killing someone notorious.

So yes, the idea is that there'd be the big mean max levels terrorizing the underlings to a point (just like diminishing returns on honor kills worked fine) and now there's actually a reason for someone to stop them.

Can someone just make a game that does it and stop pitching underhand? You can put the ruleset on a special server...





That's thinking of a simple system at some later phase of its life, though. It shouldn't be too hard to implement this sort of system in a closed place like a battleground.

Killing some afk asswipe shouldn't be worth more because you soloed them when they were running into a wall... killing the hunter that's hiding on the cliff picking people off and on a 12-0 killstreak should be.

Take those systems and give notoriety points based on performance in battlegrounds that unlock titles and wow, you have engaging PVP using the same tired system.

Do you think this shit through at all? I suspect that you don't.

How do you gauge performance in battlegrounds? Healing? Damage done? Stuns? Caps? Emotes? How do you gauge it when different classes have different specs/roles? How do you reward the guy that sits at the tower guarding it, just in case someone tries to cap it, but no one ever shows up?

This system you're describing only works if everyone is the same class with the same abilities playing the same game for the same reasons with only one sphere of gameplay. In an MMO where you must cater to all different kinds of playstyles, it simply won't work.

There ought to be a rule around here where anyone who makes some flippant remark about how incredibly easy it must be to design ___ system instantly gets a three day ban.

[Rhym]

Horse lost all credibility when he said Necros were overpowered on level with ToS's. I stopped reading his posts then.

[Horse]

Originally Posted by Digo

Do you think this shit through at all? I suspect that you don't.

How do you gauge performance in battlegrounds? Healing? Damage done? Stuns? Caps? Emotes? How do you gauge it when different classes have different specs/roles? How do you reward the guy that sits at the tower guarding it, just in case someone tries to cap it, but no one ever shows up?

Are we playing a different WoW? The one I play awards people honor in real time. If that isn't a performance gauge, what is?

This system you're describing only works if everyone is the same class with the same abilities playing the same game for the same reasons with only one sphere of gameplay. In an MMO where you must cater to all different kinds of playstyles, it simply won't work.

There ought to be a rule around here where anyone who makes some flippant remark about how incredibly easy it must be to design ___ system instantly gets a three day ban.

So you're saying that it would be difficult to go back to a fucking system in WoW that already existed: diminishing returns on kills. Instead of losing value when you die, you gain value as you kill.

It's a minor tweak, it's based on the current system. Yet here you are shitting your pants about something plainly obvious and yes, easy.

Someone who has gone 40-0 people being worth the same or less per kill than someone AFKing into the wall is stupid. I'm sorry if you can't wrap your mind around the amazing concept that they'd have a value multiplier based on the current in-game metric.

[Horse]

Originally Posted by Itzena

No.

No, you wouldn't.

If killing 1,000,000 newbs was worth 9 points total...
and killing someone who has killed 1,000,000 newbs was worth over 9,000 points.


Yes.
Yes, it would.

Because while you might knock yourself out hitting F5 on the forum for how awesome you are on a metric that nobody but yourself knows about, the people running around with the rewards that can in turn camp you for way more value and notoriety equally win.


To put it another way, you could sit and camp newbs NOW. You gain 0 for it so people don't do it.

Severely capping a bounty system could mean killing newbs is worth nearly 0 except for the fact that it makes you rapidly a bountiful target.

[Horse]

Originally Posted by Rhym

Horse lost all credibility when he said Necros were overpowered on level with ToS's. I stopped reading his posts then.

Are you talking about level 80, because necro/tos/pom are the classes with the stacking AE damage and nicely overlapping utility.

I don't recall saying they were on level with ToS, but that those are the 3 end-game cheese classes at the moment that people reroll. You don't tend to forget those times a Necro you burst down to nearly dead in turn CCs dots and essentially AEs you from full to dead while on the run.

I hate the "things are different at 80" concept, because yes 1-65ish (?) it is a horrible class to play... but things change, scaling &c.

[Steamrice]

necro cc? don't make me laugh. Freeze breaks within a sec or two. AoE fear is a 2s cast and breaks right away.

AoE people on the run and burst them down from full to dead after a cc? What the hell game are you playing and what is that person doing who burst a necro down next to dead and stops doing dmg?

[Kobalt]

I hope they don't fuck it up like l2 and make it so you screw yourself if you fight back. Wonder how many times you have to gank a similar lvl player to go red.

[Horse]

Originally Posted by Steamrice

necro cc? don't make me laugh. Freeze breaks within a sec or two. AoE fear is a 2s cast and breaks right away.

AoE people on the run and burst them down from full to dead after a cc? What the hell game are you playing and what is that person doing who burst a necro down next to dead and stops doing dmg?

Usually swinging a weapon around like a dickhead while the necro runs around?

Are you talking only about solo, group or what? Last I played, if a group was Nec/Tos/Pom/Conq/DT/Guard - I haven't played in a week or so and Conq rez spam was nerfed? beats me! - you would not go for the nec first and their damage and CC and etc was fine.

But between parasitic soul swarm, glacial storm, deadly blizzard and frost blast, you've got options to land nice AE damage in group play.

Solo it was the same shit, I'd be stuck in place they'd get range and it's over. Yes, that's a DT/Assassin issue more than anything else. But in group I found having a necro instead of stacking pom/tos was fine.

[Itzena]

Originally Posted by Horse

If killing 1,000,000 newbs was worth 9 points total...
and killing someone who has killed 1,000,000 newbs was worth over 9,000 points.


Yes.
Yes, it would.

Because while you might knock yourself out hitting F5 on the forum for how awesome you are on a metric that nobody but yourself knows about, the people running around with the rewards that can in turn camp you for way more value and notoriety equally win.


To put it another way, you could sit and camp newbs NOW. You gain 0 for it so people don't do it.

Severely capping a bounty system could mean killing newbs is worth nearly 0 except for the fact that it makes you rapidly a bountiful target.

...and then you log on your main on your second account to kill your griefer account for free points. Or your guildmate logs on his main and kills your alt, then you log on your main and he logs on his griefer alt. Or whatever.

I mean, that's only what every single fucking smart player has done in every single fucking MMOG with a bounty system since the dawn of e-time. If there's any sort of reward at all for killing reds other than item loot (because you can guaren-fucking-tee that item loot will be worked around), then it will be exploited by the dread lords newbie killers.

[Jait]

Itz makes one really good point here that's fairly common sense:

If it can be exploited, it will be exploited.

To think otherwise is to forget the first decade of MMO's (Not to mention history itself). There's always some asshole looking to ruin it for the rest. That's why you need a fairly ironclad system in place. If it's not there, by the time they will be most players have become too jaded.

AoC is a pretty awesome game with some new ideas. But they need a pretty massive test server too. I don't know if thats available yet or not, but if not, get to it.

[Mkopec1]

Originally Posted by Itzena

...and then you log on your main on your second account to kill your griefer account for free points. Or your guildmate logs on his main and kills your alt, then you log on your main and he logs on his griefer alt. Or whatever.

I mean, that's only what every single fucking smart player has done in every single fucking MMOG with a bounty system since the dawn of e-time. If there's any sort of reward at all for killing reds other than item loot (because you can guaren-fucking-tee that item loot will be worked around), then it will be exploited by the dread lords newbie killers.

Shit like this can be tracked through logs. And those players abusing this system can be banned.

Having a few exploiters does not mean that the rest of the players have to suffer not having a cool system like this in place.

Its liek taking all gold away from WoW because some buy and sell it for real money.

[Pyros]

80 necro seems fine to me too, both solo and group pvp. Pretty decent AE, albeit channeled ones, but the pets can do a decent deal of damage by themselves. Instant AE fear on 2mins cooldown(so once a fight) single target fear, crappy root. Unholy hands combine CC and AE, rather big AE snare+dmg+proc root. Solo they can take down most classes during the duration of fears, or just run around until the pets finish the opponent. Have some natural enemies, mostly healers.

Definitely not such a weak class as I expected, but good necros are rare as shit, I've only seen one out of all the 80necros, all the others are fucking terrible. This is a serious issue in gauging classes currently, the underplayed classes are harder to judge accurately because people are terrible at them, and even if they're overpopulated, people are still terrible(barbarians are a good example).

And I'm actually rerolling a necro, I find them very powerful in pve at least, as for pvp, currently most of my pvp experience is sumed up with Pet Attack then run around and do a few 1s cast dots whenever I can, until opponent dies tired. Oh and parrying a lvl 80 cyclone of steel at lvl 22 in atzel ^^.