Blizzard not evaluating AoC as a threat?

[Manseed]

Originally Posted by gnomad

AoC won't do it either since it is very droll and the "mature" factor is nothing above the level of Beavis and Butthead humor...uh uh uh she said Bearded Clam man..hehehehe...

You're right. It's not like anyone is buying Grand Theft Auto or any of those other 'mature' childish games.

[jayrebb]

Originally Posted by gnomad

That is the key and the reason the other MMORPG's haven't even come close to dethroning the current champ.

AoC won't do it either since it is very droll and the "mature" factor is nothing above the level of Beavis and Butthead humor...uh uh uh she said Bearded Clam man..hehehehe...

haha the "mature" rating AoC jokes are a constant laugh factory. Theres nothing mature about it but Im sure it appeals to the same demographic thats in that 2.5 million.

Grand Theft Auto is a serious tone game. Bad counter example.

AoC is like middle school kids smoking a cigarette that they cut the filter off of so they can talk about how high they got off that joint last night. tehehe

[Runnen]

Originally Posted by Manseed

Why all of the EQ comparisons? It's also like 75x the pop of UO at its prime. What does that matter? Second place in NA right now is LOTR last I checked. Not EQ 8 years ago.

Because EQ was until WoW the top MMO, and stayed there for a very, very long time.

[Manseed]

Originally Posted by Runnen

Because EQ was until WoW the top MMO, and stayed there for a very, very long time.

So that makes it somehow comparable to being the top MMO now in a drastically different market and audience?

[Runnen]

Originally Posted by Manseed

So that makes it somehow comparable to being the top MMO now in a drastically different market and audience?

Absolutely. What has changed in the market or the audience? EQ had its faire share of competitors (DaoC, Guild Wars, CoX to name a few), just like WoW is facing competition now (AoC, WHO, LOTRO, D&DO).

As for the audience, it hasn't changed either. People want a fun game, not needlessly complex, with good graphics, that doesn't require a computer from Area 51 to run, and where you can do some stuff solo. Those are pretty much constants in the MMO audience, and I don't think we'll see it change any time soon.

YOU have probably changed since the golden days of EQ, and some things you enjoyed in EQ and that WoW copied may not appeal to you anymore, yes. But that does not mean that the general audience of the MMO market has changed its priorities or wishes.

[m0ck]

What makes a mature game if not sex, drugs and violence? That is basically the variables that make up PG-ratings. Unless you're refering to an emotionally mature and issue-dealing son-of-a-gun. But I gotta say, you should probably look at another medium for that experience.

Though to correct myself, in the context of quests, AoC does have people suffering from the loss of a family, the atrocities of war and the like. Obviously superficial because of the requirement to go kick somebodys skull in to make it all better, but I wan't to have fun - not question the meaning of life..

[Manseed]

Originally Posted by Runnen

Absolutely. What has changed in the market or the audience? EQ had its faire share of competitors (DaoC, Guild Wars, CoX to name a few), just like WoW is facing competition now (AoC, WHO, LOTRO, D&DO).

As for the audience, it hasn't changed either. People want a fun game, not needlessly complex, with good graphics, that doesn't require a computer from Area 51 to run, and where you can do some stuff solo. Those are pretty much constants in the MMO audience, and I don't think we'll see it change any time soon.

YOU have probably changed since the golden days of EQ, and some things you enjoyed in EQ and that WoW copied may not appeal to you anymore, yes. But that does not mean that the general audience of the MMO market has changed its priorities or wishes.

It hasn't only changed, it is almost entirely a different audience. You said it yourself by continuing to bring up EQs tiny subscriber base compared to WOW. Those new players in WOW are absolutely a different market. Don't feel bad though, a lot of MMO developers seem to think that the market hasn't changed either.

[Runnen]

Originally Posted by m0ck

Though to correct myself, in the context of quests, AoC does have people suffering from the loss of a family, the atrocities of war and the like. Obviously superficial because of the requirement to go kick somebodys skull in to make it all better, but I wan't to have fun - not question the meaning of life..

There are many quests in WoW that rely on loss of family, slaughter and massacres in general, some of which are purely tear-jerking. Have you ever done the Darrowshire quest line, where you have to help the ghosts of Darrowshire defend their long-devastated town to let them rest in peace? Or where you have to find the ghost of the little girl who died when the undead attacked Darrowshire? Let's not forget Tirion Fordring and the quest where his son gets killed in front of him. Hell, even Children's Week is supposed to remind us that WARcraft comes at a price, a price the orphans pay every day.

Yet I remember people saying that WoW is so cartoony and childish and made for 10 year olds. I agree that AoC aims for a slightly older target audience (no elves alone should repell 75% of the b.net kiddies), but other games too have dipped into the serious / mature subjects before, though as you said it ends up being rather irrelevant in the end since people will do those quests for loot or reputation or other very selfish motives rather than the actual message behind them.

[m0ck]

Good point - I guess a point is, that the mature content is there but it does demand of you that actually read the quests. Not too surprising, there's probably a connection between investment and yield. The more lifelike representation in AoC might activate more of an emotional response in some, though that is probably, atleast to some degree, subjective and there's the whole deal with the uncanny valley and all that jazz.

Back to the original question though, what makes a mature game?

[Runnen]

Originally Posted by m0ck

Back to the original question though, what makes a mature game?

I think the fantasy setting for MMOs is fundamentally incompatible with a mature MMO. Now, of course photorealistic graphics, complex storytelling and a griffy, bloody feel to it makes it more adapted to older demographics.. but in the end, a world with dwarves, elves, orcs and trolls is always going to appeal to young people too because that's how it was meant to be. Tolkien wrote about dwarve, orcs, trolls and elves in a book meant for children or teenagers, and to this day, this remains true. Of course, just because something is meant for children doesn't mean only children will like it, and it is natural that it also appeals to people that grew up loving those things in books, cartoons, movies and now want to see them in games.. but I really don't think the fantasy setting will ever have a truly mature MMOs.

To make a mature MMO, I guess the best way would be to make it very realistic in a modern setting, without too much magic or fantasy elements.. and that brings the question, would that be adapted for a MMO?

There are several such MMOs such as Matrix Online (haha) or even CoX to an extent, though the colorful theme of the super-heroes and some fantasy elements thrown in to counter the rise of fantasy MMOs puts it in the same bucket as the other MMOs.

I guess a Fallout MMO would be what I consider mature.. a dark, hopeless, gritty world, with little hope and slim chances of survival.. but would that be fun to play?

And if you are drooling at the thought of a Fallout MMO, ask yourself this question : how much brown will you be willing to tolerate in that Fallout MMO? Because if you dissed Vanguard for its brownitude, then I suggest you take a trip down memory lane and remember how everything in Fallout was in shades ranging from fresh turd to dry turd, with some grey tints thrown in.

[Surlok TP]

Back to the original question though, what makes a mature game?

Moral decisions, for one. Politics, Economics .

It's simple really, I am a 28 year "adult" The difference between me today and me 15 years ago is that I still enjoy doing much of the same things. I enjoy drinking, I enjoy chasing girls and I enjoy watching something blow up and putting myself in Harms way. When I was 15 I did all this without fear are acknowledgment of repercussions. Whatever happens happens, now I have consequence that I must consider. If I make a little bomb and blow up a garbage can I'll likely achieve the same sense of satisfaction that I did as a 15 year old, except that I face the law and I might injure myself and be unable to work,then I can't pay my bills etc etc.

Eve is the only game I have played really lately that deals with issues that are generally delegated to the side of maturity, entering this system will likely result in your death if you haven't talked to the right people, doing this results in this etc etc. Basically every action demands a reaction from the fellow player base, so anyone that mindless runs around doing what they please like a mindless teenager is going to face serious consequences in the game world and won't find it welcoming or fun. That pretty much defines a mature game for me. I wouldn't say Age of Conan relays these things but who knows once player cities are formed, we'll have to see how the community develops.

In my mind Everquest was a mature game in that you had to behave a certain way within the confines of your community, lest you be labeled a ninja,loot whore or whatever other labled and be shunned by the populace. It had consequences.

By that same token WoW is about as immature a game as you'll find in the current crop. There is no consequence to your actions within the game world at all. It's a fucking train wreck. And it's what has finally put me off of the game, I have been playing a few of it's competitors games that I only looked at briefly in the last few years like EQ 2 and have found a surprisingly solid supportive community that looks out for each other and their respective servers and it altogether makes for a much more mature tolerable experience online, while still having avenues for mindless fun ,when planned accordingly.

The actual content of the game doesn't matter, to a point obviously Hello kitty online isn't going to fall into the category,but all the serious subject matter in the world won't make the game mature if everyone in it is a fucking douchbag. See GTA which has already been pointed out. Mature single player game, but jump onto X box live? your mature game just took a strip to shithead ville fast.

[gnomad]

AoC was supposed to be "mature" due to the bloody graphics (still looking for it), the sexual overtones (if you say so, haven't really seen it yet), decapitation and the loss of limbs (not in the game), nudity (only if you take your toons clothes off), etc, etc, etc...

They have missed the mark on everything that would make a movie get an M or R rating. Hell I have recently seen PG movies with much more graphic violence and sexual inuendo then this game has (Prince Caspian, Iron Man, etc.)

Just because you talk to a hooker that can't seem to tell whether you are male or female due to lazy programming doesn't make a game "mature" unless you are a pre-pubescent 12 year old and you get off on "implied" sexuality.

Oh that must be the ticket, the game is designed to be "mature" to all the b.net kiddies so that they will come over to AoC and leave WoW.

[Froofy-D]

Originally Posted by Manseed

So let's say that the numbers we're hearing are correct and Conan is close to 1 million sold. It isn't even the end of week 1. Fuck it's only day 2. Yet still Conan could never dethrone WOW, who as far as we know is at 4x the playerbase after growing for 4 years. Granted, that's all if the numbers are at all valid.

My laptop runs WoW flawless 60fps at 1680*1050, yet it is below "recommended specs" for AOC. Significantly higher system specs = game over for AOC. It will never dethrone WoW in subs even if mechanics-wise it is a better game.

[Mkopec1]

Who gives a shit who dethrones who. In all honesty how does this affect you? So WoW is the big boy on the block and WTF do you get for it as an individual player? Surely its not more content.

Too many of you saps are wrapped up too much in numbers. 10 million worldwide with 300 servers vs 100K with 4 servers really does not matter as long as you like the game and it has a decent community. You only get to play with a small portion of that whole community on a server and even breaking it down further, only a small portion of the server itself. And like I mentioned WoW has proven that even with 10 million players world wide, you still get jack and shit with all that revenue.

And I for one am glad companies are pushing graphics with games. While WoWs highly stylized and acessible look is cool and all, its nice to have some eye candy too. What else are you gonna spend your money on as a PC gamer? Who gives a shit about Jhonny casual with his 1999 Dell? Sorry for his luck. I dont want to play with him anyways.

[Draegan]

AOC is fun thats all I care about. I don't care if WOW is dethrone or whatever as long as good games come out. And AOC came out and it's fun.