[WoW]Wotlk:Raid instances to have 10 and 25 man versions, Death Knight starts at 55

[projoking]

Originally Posted by UnchainedAcolyte

It also doesn't mean because it is popular that it is necessarily bad, either. However, to appeal to a broad range of tastes implies that it usually is not anyone's personal definition of "best" in any category, but it likely is good in most. Please don't imply the idiotic McDonalds analogy.

You really believe that most, being the majority, of 10 million active accounts, are gold farmers? 5 million +? A decent percentage, perhaps even as high as 8-10%, and I feel I'm stretching it, but not 50%. Please.

I agree on the innovation aspect. Again, to appeal to a broad audience, most elements need to offer accessibility. Offer some examples.

I will agree with you on the stat ceiling, but Blizzard has accomplished this in a variety of ways (damage/heal/crit modifiers to armor and equipment, enchantments, etc.), and will continue to do so; the inscription profession sounds like a good way to make things interesting and a little better tailored to individual tastes. Part of the inherent problem (and a means to force replayability via alts), however, is a level-based system and the feeling of progression in a game. If you have nothing to achieve over and beyond given those parameters, where do you go?

First off no I don't believe all the accounts are gold farmers that was a tongue in cheek kind of joke. I am not that naive.

Are you saying for me to offer examples regarding innovation? Two words.. Dynamic Content. Content that shifts and moves with the player. Why can't I or someone else actually change something in the game world. Heck instancing even ruined that for some people. When a raid boss was killed he was killed for a while and you couldn't raid him. You had an effect on the world. In WoW it is all pre packaged and hand delivered we all get to experience the same polished turd as everyone else. Granted I am still playing it because my friends are so I realize the hypocrisy in some of my statements.

But as Kaxmax said "Maybe this game isn't for me." I guess I was hoping to spark the desire for more or better. People defend mediocrity. This game is mediocre. But you see people get defensive when you challenge things they like as though it infringes upon them and in turn means by virtue of association that they too are mediocre. That is not my point at all. I guess I am saying stop being ok with ok. Demand more from your game company. Maybe its a lofty pointless goal that goes nowhere except to a dead end street where everyone says "Who gives a shit?" At any rate my point was not to challenge or attack anyones perception of the game. If you like it keep playing it. I just will keep looking for something else.

[Sunder]

Originally Posted by projoking

But as Kaxmax said "Maybe this game isn't for me." I guess I was hoping to spark the desire for more or better. People defend mediocrity. This game is mediocre. But you see people get defensive when you challenge things they like as though it infringes upon them and in turn means by virtue of association that they too are mediocre. That is not my point at all. I guess I am saying stop being ok with ok. Demand more from your game company. Maybe its a lofty pointless goal that goes nowhere except to a dead end street where everyone says "Who gives a shit?" At any rate my point was not to challenge or attack anyones perception of the game. If you like it keep playing it. I just will keep looking for something else.

I demand more from an MMO. After playing the raid game of EQ, I demanded a game where content wasn't monopolized by a few dozen players on the server. I demanded a game where I could enjoy the content without looking over my shoulder ever 30seconds wondering if that wizard was going to KS the rare named spawn that I've been camping for the past 5 hours. I demanded a game where content was delivered to everyone, not just the no-life losers who could play 24/7. WoW is what I demanded for my MMO dollar. It is better.

[Hatorade]

I demanded you shut the fuck up....oo burn I even took the time to spell it out. Seriously though trying demanding more from WoW because right now we should be as fucking satisfied as who ever is making all this cash.

[FoghornDeadhorn]

I don't care how much business sense it makes, if people can see nearly the exact same content running 10 mans as those of us who run full raids then I'm really not sure I want to continue.

A) 10-man encounters can't be as complex as 25-man
B) Beating someone like Arthas with a mere 10 people is fucking queer as hell

If the only difference is the loot, then at this point I say to hell with this. I don't care what your opinion of that is, that's how I feel. I know Blizzard isn't going to give a shit about that considering their money hats are only going to get bigger, but you might as well not even have a raid game at that point. Loot? What is loot good for? Arena takes care of your PVP needs, so all loot does for you is PVE progression. And what's the point of PVE progression? To kill boss X, see zone Y. Why bother with the extra strategic and logistical difficulties of running a 25 man raid guild when you can see all the content in 10s? It just takes the motivation completely out of it.

[Kodylan]

Originally Posted by FoghornDeadhorn

I don't care how much business sense it makes, if people can see nearly the exact same content running 10 mans as those of us who run full raids then I'm really not sure I want to continue.

A) 10-man encounters can't be as complex as 25-man
B) Beating someone like Arthas with a mere 10 people is fucking queer as hell

If the only difference is the loot, then at this point I say to hell with this. I don't care what your opinion of that is, that's how I feel. I know Blizzard isn't going to give a shit about that considering their money hats are only going to get bigger, but you might as well not even have a raid game at that point. Loot? What is loot good for? Arena takes care of your PVP needs, so all loot does for you is PVE progression. And what's the point of PVE progression? To kill boss X, see zone Y. Why bother with the extra strategic and logistical difficulties of running a 25 man raid guild when you can see all the content in 10s? It just takes the motivation completely out of it.

It's likely that post-Naxxramas, the 10-person versions will require the 25-person version to be completed prior to them being unlocked. It's not something concrete yet, but they're definitely considering it. It'll obviously have a fail safe so that if a server sucks, it'll open eventually simply based on time.

[Kaxmax]

Originally Posted by projoking

But as Kaxmax said "Maybe this game isn't for me." I guess I was hoping to spark the desire for more or better. People defend mediocrity. This game is mediocre. But you see people get defensive when you challenge things they like as though it infringes upon them and in turn means by virtue of association that they too are mediocre. That is not my point at all. I guess I am saying stop being ok with ok. Demand more from your game company. Maybe its a lofty pointless goal that goes nowhere except to a dead end street where everyone says "Who gives a shit?" At any rate my point was not to challenge or attack anyones perception of the game. If you like it keep playing it. I just will keep looking for something else.

I understand your desire, I really do. However, to think that WoW was going to be any sort of revolutionary/innovative game was simply turning a blind eye to Blizzard's history. They don't innovate. They take a known commodity, make it user friendly, and polish the hell out of it.

They are not going to release content quickly, and they aren't going to take huge risks. You can either deal with that or not, and nobody will fault you for not playing, but to 'demand more' is just pissing in the wind. Blizzard doesn't care, because they are the best in the business at growing money trees.

[projoking]

Originally Posted by Sunder

I demand more from an MMO. After playing the raid game of EQ, I demanded a game where content wasn't monopolized by a few dozen players on the server. I demanded a game where I could enjoy the content without looking over my shoulder ever 30seconds wondering if that wizard was going to KS the rare named spawn that I've been camping for the past 5 hours. I demanded a game where content was delivered to everyone, not just the no-life losers who could play 24/7. WoW is what I demanded for my MMO dollar. It is better.

I apologize. I have not been giving fair credit to WoW. It has done a lot of things right that I will agree with you on. I guess there are aspects that I liked and disliked which will come with every game. But I already admitted I am part of the niche market so this game is not for me. I already said I was not trying to say you people are stupid. I was rather bold in declaring what you like is mediocre. That is my opinion and I have no right to tell you the things you like are stupid. Because who says they are? Me? I am hardly the end all be all of authority on any subject. I will just resign this topic of conversation because where does it lead us anyways. We are talking on a MMO guilds website that has no real effect on the direction of WoW anyways.

I demanded you shut the fuck up....oo burn I even took the time to spell it out. Seriously though trying demanding more from WoW because right now we should be as fucking satisfied as who ever is making all this cash.

I don't really know what to say to this. The first part of your comment was an insult I get that, but what about the last part. It is not coherent and I don't understand your point. Are you saying we should be satisfied with whatever company has the biggest money making MMO? If so I say whatever floats your boat.

[Cuppycake]

To people like Foghorn -

I want to see some sort of percentage of people in hardcore raiding guilds who raid because of the story, or the lore. I'll never forget raiding with my last guild, coming up to Nefarian and hearing people not have any idea that Nef and Onyxia were siblings...and that Deathwing is their father. Not to mention no one even knew who Deathwing/Neltharion even was.

I agree that perhaps there should be another incentive other than loot, but I'd venture to guess that a good reason why people raid the end game of WoW is because they like to take 25 people, figure out the best strategy to kill a boss (whether it's for bragging rights, rankings, or loot) and advance with their guild up the progression ladder to bigger and better things. The new 10/25 man thing won't change fundamental issues:

* The 25 mans will still be harder, most likely with much more complicated strategies to figure out.
* There will still be a 25 man progression ladder for being to stroke their e-peens against each other.
* There will still be the uber raid rewards.

The only difference is that people like me, who know the Warcraft lore in and out will actually get to experience some of these epic encounters. I'd love to someday see Shade of Akama and Illidan - but I doubt I'll ever step inside Black Temple. Back in the day I raided hardcore through Naxx and I remember thinking while killing Ragnaros that I'd be so bummed out if I couldn't experience it. Thankfully I did, but now I'd be upset if I never got see Arthas. Some people just don't have the right situation to participate in large-scale coordinated efforts - but we'd still like to experience the game, the story, and the notable figures in Warcraft history.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Originally Posted by FoghornDeadhorn

I don't....

I think that's why they're considering making unlocking the 10 man version require ganking the 25 man version first.

Similar to Kael. It's a wicked awesome encounter and it's a shame most people will never get to see it, but Magister's Terrace allows you to at least experience a toned down version.

A year later anyways.

But it's a completely different encounter with it's own lorelol behind it. The 10/25 man versions just being "Same fight, hits harder" may end up being a dissapointment though if they don't find some good way to differentiate.

Having the 10/25 be different actual dungeons with completely different layouts, just with a similar tile set would be preferable honestly. The bosses can be the same, but hopefully the distinction in the fights can be different. Like 10 man Arthas is about trying to get him to drop frostmourne. 25 man is about killing the dude.

[projoking]

Originally Posted by Kaxmax

I understand your desire, I really do. However, to think that WoW was going to be any sort of revolutionary/innovative game was simply turning a blind eye to Blizzard's history. They don't innovate. They take a known commodity, make it user friendly, and polish the hell out of it.

They are not going to release content quickly, and they aren't going to take huge risks. You can either deal with that or not, and nobody will fault you for not playing, but to 'demand more' is just pissing in the wind. Blizzard doesn't care, because they are the best in the business at growing money trees.

Right right and right. I agree with you 100%. They are good at "growing money" and to expect more from them maybe in some small part was due to a bit of fanboyism. You like a company and most of the products they produce so you end up wanting them to succeed in your eyes and nobody else's. Don't know if that has some psychology junk tied into it regardless I will stop bantering on about a game that 9 million people like and apparently only 1 person dislikes. Thanks for your constructive comment.

[l0z]

Cuppy's lying! She'll see the inside of BT, because it's on the schedule sometime soon!

[Cuppycake]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

I think that's why they're considering making unlocking the 10 man version require ganking the 25 man version first.

Nope. From the article:

The 10 and 25-man progressions will not depend on each other

l0z - are you in my guild? LOL I'm only level 62. =/

[Zehn - Vhex]

Originally Posted by Cuppycake

Nope. From the article:

That was in regards to unlocking. Like needing to kill Nightbane to unlock SSC/TK. They didn't say they wouldn't have keying, just that keying for a 25 man wouldn't require beating the 10 man and vice versa. However from the Curse interview:

Curse: Something that just popped into my head regarding the 10 and 25 for each raid instance. Are you concerned that guilds at the cutting edge will put together 10-person groups just to learn encounters, and then take that knowledge into the 25-person instances?

TC: Yeah, we have talked about that possibility. One thing we're also talking about doing -- we haven't finalized it yet -- but one possibility would be that the instance actually has to be defeated by somebody on that server in 25 man mode before it can be unlocked for 10 man. With of course some kind of fail safe, so that if some amount of time goes by and it still hasn't been beaten, it would unlocked for the 10-person anyways, just in case there doesn't happen to be a guild on the server that's capable of doing the content. That is definitely a concern we're actively talking about how to approach.

[Korioni]

I can't wait to see the plaguelands and outlands at Wotlk release. 5-man quests won't be possible as a deathknight because every other person in there will be a deathknight.


I plan on getting my mage up to 80, starting a DK and seeing if I like it better.

[gnomad]

Assuming words still have meaning

but one possibility would be that the instance actually has to be defeated by somebody on that server in 25 man mode before it can be unlocked for 10 man

Note what was said was "somebody on that server" not someone in that group. Very huge difference or someone totally screwed up what they meant to say.